Wednesday, May 16, 2018

718: Why Vienna.....?

To have a closer look at the roots of the 21st century, we take our starting point in Vienna of 1900.
Why Vienna, why this big city. I wondered about that myself, but there is a possible explanation, which is somewhat obscured by our present life.
Just imagine the situation in 1900. It is really a matter of closing your eyes and use your imagination.
Strip your present world of everything that did not exist in 1900. Out go Internet, computer, radio, 
worldwide telephone connections, equality of man and woman, general right to vote, education for everyone at all levels.
What was new in 1900 were industrialization, mass production and urbanization.
As an intellectual, scientist or artist what did you do in those days where spreading ideas mainly happened only by newspaper, magazine, book or personal conversations and exchanges?
You went to a big city, where all this kind of people gathered and where the important universities were, 
That were the places where the action was: Paris, Berlin, London, Vienna, where Vienna certainly was one of the leading cities in those days.
We are looking for the roots of the 21st century in the 20th century and we already have seen the rise of psychology with Freud.
We also observed a strong racism and antisemitism and with Kraft-Ebing the most peculiar ideas about sexuality and the position of women.
But what comes to my mind in relation to that is, that in 1907 there wandered a failed art student through the streets of Vienna, absorbing this atmosphere: Adolf Hitler.
And what happened in Vienna too was the separation of strict science and philosophy of science  
from the habit of continental philosophy to build extensive theories about everything based on a rationalist approach, in the belief that the mind is the prima donna here.
What I refer to here is the Vienna Circle which started in 1908 as philosophical meetings on the philosophy of science and epistemology.
These both historical events, among others of course, have been fundamental for how our world looks like now in 2018.
Let's get back to what was happening in Vienna in the first decennium of the 20th century and meet someone.
Adolf Loos (1870-1933). He was an Austrian architect and influential European theorist of modern architecture. 
He was friends with Freud, Karl Kraus,  a publisher, Wittgenstein and with the rest of the club at Cafe Griensteidl, a place where the intelligentsia of Vienna used to meet.  
Loos thought in revolutionary terms. Architecture, he argued, is not art. 
"The artwork is the personal affair of the artist. Art wants to disrupt the comfortzone of people. The house must offer just comfort. The artwork is revolutionary, the house conservative. " 
This reasoning applied not only to architecture, but also to clothing and even to his manners. He stood for simplicity, functionality, baldness.
According to him, man was threatened to become a slave of materialism, and he wanted to restore the "right" relationship between art and life. 
Since architecture was conservative, it was lower in the hierarchy than art. This insight had to be disseminated because it would work liberating. 
'The craftsman produces utensils for the here and now, the artist makes something for everyone, everywhere', Loos said.
An interesting is not craftmanship, but a means to disrupt our comfortzone.....And this was said in 1903.
Thank you for your attention...:_)

The Discussion
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm art in my meaning is any good looking design, painting or similar, and it does not have to be disruptive
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but that's me
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): art is art when you say it's art
[13:25] Umae Ying: what are the dates on DA DA
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it doens't have to be good looking
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...but it is interesting to note this change of attitude in the artist
[13:25] CB Axel: I tend to agree with you, Bejiita, but I've seen art that isn't good looking.
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same here
[13:26] Umae Ying: and are you speaking pre WW1 or after?
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): art is a such wide thing
[13:26] CB Axel: Just because something is useful doesn't mean it's not a work of art, imo.
[13:26] herman Bergson: there can be said something about art....
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ww1 was from 1914 til 1918
[13:26] Umae Ying: art before and after the war was very different
[13:26] herman Bergson: till the Romantics artists were craftsmen...producing thing people liked
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Loos had a whole different way of thinking
[13:28] herman Bergson: but around 1840 or some began to claim that the artist had some special connection with the transcnedental which ordinary people dint have.....and thence he made ART....
[13:28] herman Bergson: Art as we know it is just invented in that period
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so what Rembrandt did was not called art in his time?
[13:29] Umae Ying: yes it was art in his time
[13:29] herman Bergson: No....was called good craftsmanship, Beerje
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah ok
[13:29] Umae Ying: because of the guilds
[13:29] herman Bergson: Like you go to a photographer today, in those days you went to Rembrandt...if you had the money :-)
[13:30] herman Bergson: It was not art in the sense we call things works of art today
[13:30] Umae Ying: nods
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:31] herman Bergson: So the idea that art should people disturb in their comfort zone is an interesting development
[13:32] herman Bergson: why should it?
[13:32] Umae Ying: da da
[13:32] herman Bergson: yes
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is da da Umae?
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dadaism?
[13:32] Umae Ying: an art movement that was very in your face
[13:32] Umae Ying: yes
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like surrealism and similar
[13:32] Umae Ying: yes
[13:32] herman Bergson: I think it is related to the belief that the ARTIST has some special connect with an knowledge of...whatever it may be....
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that i like
[13:33] herman Bergson: but in terms of German philosophy you could say...the Transcendental
[13:34] Umae Ying: but Rodin was working at the same time
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and we win 3.1! yay, and the last goal was truly a work of art, shot from the other goal right acros the rink right into the other goal
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): THAT is also art
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:34] herman Bergson: Dada movement consisted of artists who rejected the logic, reason, and aestheticism of modern capitalist society, instead expressing nonsense, irrationality, and anti-bourgeois protest in their works.
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:34] herman Bergson: So ten steps further than Loos went :-))
[13:35] herman Bergson: but in line with his idea
[13:35] herman Bergson: Congrats Bejiita, btw :-))
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:35] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Ive tried to incorporate surrealism into a game story, like a character who gets teleported into his dreams or something like that
[13:36] CB Axel: Yay, Sweden for beating the country Trump's money is in!
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): could be a really interesting concept
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:36] herman Bergson: oops...which was that CB...? :-)
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Russia
[13:37] herman Bergson: ahh yes...sorry
[13:37] CB Axel: LOL
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Trump and Putin are the same hit both of them and in the same league
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shit
[13:37] herman Bergson: I think we are off subject now....
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well those 2 are certainly not works of art, well really ugly art in that case
[13:38] CB Axel: So did Dadaism influence Hitler or did Hitler influence Dadaism?
[13:38] CB Axel: Or did other forces influence both?
[13:38] herman Bergson: Dadaism was for Hitler entartete Kunst, CB
[13:39] CB Axel: Oh.
[13:39] herman Bergson: Hitler's taste was pompous and bourgeois
[13:39] CB Axel: Like Wagner?
[13:40] herman Bergson: Equal to that communist art of the Soviets in the 50s and 690s
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: he needed the enkargement very badly - ask freud about it
[13:40] CB Axel: I see.
[13:41] CB Axel: enkargement?
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes I was wonder too CB :-)
[13:41] herman Bergson: What  is SLife without typos :-)
[13:41] CB Axel: A typo or a word I"m not familiar with? LOL
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:41] CB Axel: Hard to tell sometimes.
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): RL...Herman :)
[13:42] CB Axel: We could invent a whole new language here based on typos. °͜°
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: sorry typing with one hand
[13:42] herman Bergson: Ciska...what is that word?
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: enlargement
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): macht nichts Ciska
[[13:42] herman Bergson: perfect!
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:43] herman Bergson: no we know...:-)
[13:43] herman Bergson: thnx
[13:43] CB Axel: So, another parallel between Hitler and Trump.
[13:43] herman Bergson: Ok....
[13:43] herman Bergson: Most important of to day is the notion of a changed approach regarding the function of art in society....
[13:44] herman Bergson: born in the previous century
[13:44] herman Bergson: A good moment to conclude our discussion...
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): was that the base of a whole new thinking in that century?
[13:44] herman Bergson: So unless you have a life saving question yet, let me dismiss class:-)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok im of inventing the typonese language then
[13:45] CB Axel: °͜°
[13:45] CB Axel: LOL
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or just creating some more bugs in some programming code
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:45] herman Bergson: Good work Bejiita
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time then
[13:46] herman Bergson: and regarding your question Beertje
[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and Class!It was very interesting and entertaining, as always:o)
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes?
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: thank u hermann - thank you all
[13:47] herman Bergson: what we observe in those early years of the 20th century is a kind of social involvement of artists
[13:47] CB Axel: Interesting
[13:47] herman Bergson: they dont want to please...they want to tease, so to speak
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: jump
[13:48] herman Bergson: Interesting stays the question, of course, why this change of mind among artists...
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's changed a lot
[13:48] CB Axel: Protest against industrialization?
[13:49] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.
[13:49] herman Bergson: yes CB....was thinking of that indeed....
[13:49] herman Bergson: a general dissatisfaction with the new urge to protest against it
[[13:50] herman Bergson: another  thing is that in those years photography was developing....
[13:50] Umae Ying: Rilke wrote a book that reflected his dismay at the way industrialization changed life in Paris and other cities
[13:50] herman Bergson: so a nice landscape on the wal could also be a photograph...or a family portrait....
[13:51] herman Bergson: no artists needed he needed a new role
[13:51] CB Axel: Painters were being made obsolete.
[13:51] herman Bergson: a new outlet for creativity
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and people could see more of the world than only their backyard
[13:51] CB Axel nods
[13:52] Umae Ying: Lou Solome was an early and outspoken feminist.... who became a psychoanalist under Freud... early womens libber
[13:52] herman Bergson: Wasn't she a friend of Nietzsche, Umae?
[13:53] Umae Ying: yes...
[13:53] CB Axel: So the rise of photography, an industrial form of art, lead to artists protesting industrialization and Hitler didn't like that.
[13:53] Umae Ying: and Rilke
[13:53] herman Bergson: Well...not that literally CB....
[13:54] herman Bergson: You must see it as forces influencing other forces....causing changes.....not as rockbottom causality
[13:54] Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): sorry i must run
[13:54] Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): thanks herman
[13:54] herman Bergson: Be well Kimmy :-)
[13:54] Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): bye everyone
[13:54] CB Axel: Yes. Of course.
[13:55] CB Axel: Bye, Kimmy.
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Kimmi
[13:55] Umae Ying: baiee
[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: bye, Kimmy:-)
[13:55] herman Bergson: History is more a kind of a puzzle....
[13:56] herman Bergson: you have all kinds of pieces and you can put them together in several kinds of ways.....
[13:56] herman Bergson: and every time you get some picture...
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and ask yourself a lot of 'what if's "
[13:57] CB Axel: Yes, Beertje.
[13:57] herman Bergson: so..there is the painter/artist..there is photography....there is the function of the painer...there is the idea of what art should be...and so on
[13:58] CB Axel: Things were definitely changing
[13:59] herman Bergson: we call it evolution CB :-))
[13:59] CB Axel: °͜°
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a fast evolution
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe too fast?
[14:00] herman Bergson: How do you determine that something is too must have some standard for that....
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true
[14:00] herman Bergson: which one did you have in mind Beertje :-)
[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): industrial change
[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a lot of pollution
[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): overproduction
[14:02] herman Bergson: polution is an interesting one...
[14:02] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i  have to go too, ty again and see you Thursday :-)
[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): slaap lekker Bergie
[14:02] herman Bergson: Sweet dreams usw Bergie
[14:02] herman Bergson: ^_^
[14:03] CB Axel: Yes, it's time to go. See you all Thursday.
[14:03] herman Bergson: Class dismissed finally ^_^
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

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