Wednesday, April 3, 2019

772: Women's Emancipation...

-quote- The problem lay buried, unspoken for many years in the minds of American women.  
It was a strange stirring, a sense of dissatisfaction, a yearning that women  suffered in the middle of the twentieth century in the United States.  
Each  suburban wife struggled with it alone.  As she made the beds, shopped for  groceries, matched slipcover material, 
ate peanut butter sandwiches with her  children, chauffeured Cub Scouts and Brownies, lay beside her husband at night -
she was afraid to ask even of herself the silent question -“Is this all?” -end quote-
These are the fist lines of the book "The Feminine Mystique", written by Betty Friedan and published in 1963.
It describes as, what she called, the "Problem That Has No Name" .
The book depicts the roles of women in industrial societies, especially the full-time homemaker role which Friedan deemed stifling. 
In her book, Friedan described a depressed suburban housewife who dropped out of college at the age of 19 to get married and raise four children. 
She spoke of her own 'terror' at being alone, wrote that she had never once in her life seen a positive female role-model 
who worked outside the home and also kept a family, and cited numerous cases of housewives who felt similarly trapped.
Friedan, however, asserted that women are as capable as men for any type of work or any career path against arguments to the contrary by the mass media, educators and psychologists.
Her book was important not only because it challenged hegemonic sexism in US society, but because it differed 
from the general emphasis of 19th- and early 20th-century arguments for expanding women's education, political rights, and participation in social movements. 
The "first-wave" feminists of 1910 or so had often shared an essentialist view of women's nature and a view of society in which different groups (men, women, farmers, laborers, etc.) work together in harmony.
The claim was, that women's suffrage, education, and social participation would increase the prevalence of marriage, 
make women better wives and mothers, and improve national and international health and efficiency,
Friedan based women's rights in what she called "the basic human need to grow, man's will to be all that is in him to be." 
The emphasis was not on becoming a better wife or mother, but on the value of personal individuality and the freedom and the right to develop yourself.
What Simone de Beauvoir set in motion in Europe, Betty Friedan did it in the United States.
She was co-founder of the NOW. This is the National Organization for Women, an American feminist organization founded in 1966. 
The organization consists of 550 chapters in all 50 U.S. states and in Washington, D.C  and it has shown to be a powerful organization.
The NOW succeeded to get important legislation changed and amended in favor of the social and equal position of women.
That was in the 20th century. Did we receive it as our legacy or has a lot been lost again? Is there equal pay for men and women for the same job today, for instance, in the 21st century?
Thank you for your attention again....

The Discussion

[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:17] CB Axel: My sister and I were just talking about our mother's life and how bad it was.
[13:17] herman Bergson: Give Ciska a minute or so to read the notecard of the lecture
[13:17] herman Bergson: In what sense 'bad' CB?
[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: o  no worries - hi everyone sorry for being a late bloomer
[13:18] CB Axel: She was an intelligent, educated woman who ended up as a housewife and mother.
[13:18] herman Bergson: Yes...what Betty Friedan said
[13:18] herman Bergson: Did your mother feel bad about it?
[13:19] CB Axel: Back then women were expected to grow up, get married, and have children whether she was suited to that.
[13:19] CB Axel: Men could grow up to be anything, but women were just domestic drones.
[13:19] herman Bergson: The general idea was..that women loved that role
[13:19] CB Axel: And yes. I feel she does feel bad about it.
[13:20] herman Bergson: In the Netherlands it is now the other way around.....
[13:20] herman Bergson: as a woman and married and mother....
[13:20] CB Axel: I remember staying home from school because I was ill. My mom let me watch TV and gave me ginger ale (which we couldn't touch otherwise), but she complained the whole time that she was stuck at home with no one to talk to but a kid.
[13:20] herman Bergson: when you say you are a housewife....they ask...why havent you got a job?
[13:21] CB Axel: It got to the point that I would just go to school ill rather than stay home with her.
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, don't you work at all they ask
[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes CB...that is what I wonder about now and then too.....
[13:21] CB Axel: That's not fair, either. If a woman loves being a housewife and mother, she should be free to do that.
[13:22] herman Bergson: a woman sitting at home all day....just doing some cleaning....
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and drinking sherry:)
[13:22] herman Bergson: I should not be questioned
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:22] CB Axel: LOL, Beertje.
[13:23] herman Bergson: Only when there isn't anything else in the cupboard, Beertje
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the fact is that when I got married i lost my job
[13:23] CB Axel: Really?
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wow!
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:23] CB Axel: That's awful.
[13:23] herman Bergson: Betty Friedan was fired when she was pregnant of her second child in 1957
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes :(
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i wasn't pregnant
[13:24] herman Bergson: My mother stopped working when she got married
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they didn't want a married woman in the house
[13:24] herman Bergson: What house was that??? :-)
[13:24] CB Axel: The bad thing was that after like 20 years of marriage, a man got tired of his wife and left her for his 20 year old secretary, the ex-wife had no skills to support herself.
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i was a female receptionist
[13:25] herman Bergson: A classic one, CB
[13:25] CB Axel: Yes. Because men are pigs. :-)
[13:25] herman Bergson: What has being married to do with that profession, Beertje?
[13:26] CB Axel: Good question
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nothing at all Herman, i loved my job, but the day of my marriage was my last day at work
[13:26] herman Bergson: and that was LEGAL????
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a sad story
[13:26] CB Axel: Flight attendents couldn't be married either.
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes at that time it was
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:27] herman Bergson: true,..and not older than 30 to 35
[13:27] CB Axel: Women in the work place were supposed to be virgins and available.
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: my dad got his first pay raise in his first year of work because he married - not because he performed exceptionally good... that was normal in those days
[13:27] CB Axel nods
[13:27] herman Bergson: And how is the situation today....
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i didn't get paid anymore, i got nothing left
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: unthinkable today
[13:28] herman Bergson: did we inherit something form the efforts of the feminists in the 20th century?
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): except my new husband:)
[13:28] CB Axel: Married women can work now, but we still don't get paid the same as men.
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true CB
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the men get a pay raise, the women loose their job, what kind of crazy sad world is that?
[13:29] herman Bergson: Indeed CB, tho it is in the 19th amendment, that you should be paid equal
[13:29] CB Axel: I think men are expected to do his share of housework and child care now.
[13:29] herman Bergson: and in the 1964 law
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully indeed
[13:30] herman Bergson: so we see some positive changes here?
[13:30] CB Axel: The 19th amendment only deals with a woman's right to vote.
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we need a lot of changes
[13:30] herman Bergson: the wrong one :-)
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): woman still get not as many money as man do for the same job
[13:31] herman Bergson: amazes me still
[13:31] CB Axel: There is no amendment guaranteeing equal pay for equal work.
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's true even in 2019
[13:32] herman Bergson: I forgot the name but there is a bill of 1964 which demanded equality for man and woman.....It was  passed under pressure of NOW
[13:32] bergfrau Apfelbaum: women should also receive a salary for the time with the children.... children are workers and customers of tomorrow, no?
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes Bergie
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: equality for many people even nowadays seems a difficult concept to catch
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and who raises those workers?...woman do
[13:33] herman Bergson: The idea has been around Bergie....that the "housewife" should get a salary too
[13:33] CB Axel:
[13:34] herman Bergson: found it CB!
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): housewives don't count as workers
[13:34] herman Bergson: not 100% true Beertje.....
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): 99%?
[13:34] CB Axel: The equal rights amendment never passed.
[13:35] herman Bergson: after a divorce a Dutch housewife is entitled to a part of the pension of the ex a pay for all the married years
[13:35] herman Bergson: true..99%...:-)
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): only after divorce...
[13:35] herman Bergson: You have to divorce and reach 65 years of age
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i will tell my husband :)
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he will be surprised
[13:36] CB Axel: 38 states need to ratify a new amendment. Only 36 have ratified the ERA.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Amazing system you have over there CB
[13:37] herman Bergson: Apparently totally male dominated :-)
[13:37] CB Axel: I personally don't know if a woman who is able to work should get alimony. She should get child support, though.
[13:37] CB Axel: And women need to be able to get jobs that pay them fairly.
[13:37] herman Bergson: In the Netherlands....when she works she doesnt get alimoony but the man still has to pay for the child
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: Germany too
[13:38] CB Axel: And giving a woman part of her ex-husband's pension sounds fair to me, too.
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it is his child too
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: and she needs to support herself when the child is 3 years and older
[13:38] CB Axel: Right, Beertje.
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:38] herman Bergson: Is rule in the Netherlands since 1995
[13:40] herman Bergson: It is for me a pretty weird observation to see that in the 21st century mens still cant accept women as equals
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Man have to learn a lot
[13:41] herman Bergson: I can understand the feeling that women differ from men, but not the conclusion that they therefore have less rights
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: most men who can't argue with : we are not the same
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: they don't get the difference between equal and same
[13:42] FrannyDJ Dean is online.
[13:42] herman Bergson: I guess that is the problem Ciska
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: which shows the mathematical object orientational mind
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are just afraid of loosing the power they thing they get from reducing the woman to a house/sex slave
[13:42] CB Axel: Right, Bejiita.
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: I don't condemn that - it's just not working with human beings... humans are no objects.
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very true
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: in the mra u have a lot of folks you really seem not to be able to grasp that fully
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: so sometimes I think - they really just can't do it
[13:43] CB Axel: I read something written by a man who's friend thought it was nice that he "helped out his wife around the house." He answered that he wasn't helping his wife. He was doing what was needed to keep the house going.
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or the won't understand Ciska
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and I do wonder if thats really rooted in  what is discussed now as toxic masculinity
[13:44] CB Axel: If he lived alone he'd have to cook his own meals and clean up after himself, so why should he expect his wife to do it?
[13:44] herman Bergson: The right answer, CB
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: if they are cut off their own emotions they are not able to understand the emotions of other people and start to reduce
[13:44] CB Axel: so, some men are getting better.
[13:45] herman Bergson: I cook  every day :-)
[13:45] herman Bergson: do al repairs in the house
[13:45] herman Bergson: do the grocery shoppings
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also good at making yummy stuff
[13:45] CB Axel: I do all that, too. :-)
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we do that together
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause i love yummy stuff and i can find all on the web but some recipes call for a production kitchen it feels like
[13:45] herman Bergson: I knew we had something in common, CB  :-)
[13:46] CB Axel: lol
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:46] Lai Fallen (laila.streeter) is online.
[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...what may our conclusion be...???
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more need to be done still for equality
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there have to be a lot of changes
[13:47] CB Axel: That things are better but we still have a long way to go?
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: emancipation was inevitable and it's not stoppable
[13:47] herman Bergson: Did we inherit something form the feminist efforts of the 20th century?
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: we are much more conscious about social issues although we cannot solve them yet
[13:48] herman Bergson: So we did gain something.....
[13:48] CB Axel: We need to get rid of religion, too. A lot of people say woman need to be controlled by men because it's in the Bible.
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: I think we gained a lot of consciousness
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: thats not always easy
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: and it depresses people
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: but it needs to be done to alter things
[13:49] herman Bergson: is easier to obey the Bible than to take responsibility yourself
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: well and its easier to look the other way
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: then to read 'metoo everywhere
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): man are afraid to lose power
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: but its undoable nowadays - u cannot escape
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: there can be much controverse about the how and "how much"
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: but it clearly is on the table now
[13:50] herman Bergson: When I add up all I heard....I guess.....we score a C- ?
[13:51] herman Bergson: In Dutch ratings a 6-
[13:51] CB Axel: C+, I think.
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): 5,5
[13:51] herman Bergson: Wow CB , you are generous :-))
[13:51] CB Axel: Things are better. Just not good enough.
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is C+
[13:51] herman Bergson: and Beertje somewhat skeptical...
[13:51] CB Axel: C is average
[13:51] herman Bergson: 6 to 7
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think 5,5 is enough
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:52] herman Bergson: Beertje...please :-)
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles
[13:52] herman Bergson: Al teast the feminist did their best
[13:52] herman Bergson: At least
[13:52] bergfrau Apfelbaum: we inherited courage. to talk about the problem. maybe it takes only 3 generations for something to change :-)
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: yes I think too it will take some generations
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: but it cannot be ignored any longer
[13:53] herman Bergson: It takes generations indeed Bergie...
[13:53] herman Bergson: Keep in mind that some changes took centuries
[13:54] herman Bergson: that is a quite common course of events in huma existence
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: yes social change seems always slower then technical one for example
[13:54] herman Bergson: yes indeed Ciska
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: we are humans after all
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: and hold on to our habits
[13:54] herman Bergson: That is why technological changes disrupt social changes now and then
[13:55] herman Bergson: The Internet can be very disruptive, for instance
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: yes and often enough people mix up the internet social change with emancipation... I do find that interesting too
[13:56] herman Bergson: Well..I guess this is really a day we saved the world really a little bit :-)
[13:57] CB Axel:  °͜°
[13:57] herman Bergson: Unless you think you can save some more, I'd like to thank you for your participation again :-)
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully we did
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wel before the day is coming to an end we did something good:)
[13:58] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....^_^
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well until next time
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: take care bejiita
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten allemaal
[13:58] herman Bergson: Go and check your code, Bejiita :-)
[13:58] CB Axel: Welterusten, y'all.
[13:58] herman Bergson: Happpy debugging :-)
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten beertje
[13:58] CB Axel: see you all Thursday.
[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: have a good week cb
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we do
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye bye
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now
[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: byee beertje
[13:59] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje :-)
[13:59] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman and class! 

No comments:

Post a Comment