Wednesday, April 10, 2019

774: The Sociologists.........

Those years after the war, the 1950s and 1960s were actually very exciting times. It is a time of rebuilding society.
The fun of the moment is, that we are entering MY time now, the time I can remember.
I went to university in September 1969. I was there.... Sociology was a hot study in those years. It meant something.....and it was so left-wing :-))
When I think back, I still have to smile. For my final exam of the gymnasium (high school) for history I had prepared a subject: Kant-Schilling-Feuerbach-Hegel-Marx....
There I history teacher and next to him a professor from the university of Utrecht....and I had to answer their questions.
I was impressed by the dialectics of Hegel: thesis - anti-thesis - synthesis and I remember so well, that I argued that. Marx abused this dialectics.
That professor from the university must have been confronted with all those Marxist students in his lecture I got an A+ ^_^
We are a bit puzzled by the polarization - let's restrict it for a moment to the US. Republicans and Democrates....water and fire.
But don't forget those 1950s. Joseph McCarthy. Reelected in 1952, he became chair of the Senate's subcommittee on investigations, 
and for the next two years he investigated various government departments and questioned innumerable witnesses, resulting in what would be known as the Red Scare.
Those were tough days. I, myself, hadn't any idea then what was meant by left or right. I guess I was a bit leftist yet.
But those were the days of the sociologists. David Riesman taught us, that personality is not the result of educational acts of parents but the interaction with society.
There was this group of sociologists and psychologists, that fled Germany in 1939. Two big names Adorno and Hannah Arendt.
What occupied the mind of Adorno and friends was the dictatorship of Hitler, the holocaust and thence the question...where does such an authoritarian personality come from..
They already started their research in 1939, but could continue only after their escape to America. It resulted in the famous publication of "The Authoritarian Personality".
While McCarthy was hunting communists, Adorno and his group were much more afraid of the rise of fascism in the United States.
Famous is the so-called F-scale, where F means 'fascism'. They thought that the authoritarian personality is just one step away from the fascist personality.
The authoritarian personality is thought to be caused by a strict upbringing, as hostility cannot be expressed towards the individual’s parents, and so is expressed towards other during adulthood. 
People with an authoritarian personality tend to be rigid thinkers, who are obedient to authority in most cases. 
They have a strict adherence to social values, and show hostility to inferiors, but servility to superiors.
Do we call them Republicans these days.......?
Thank you for your attention again...^_^

The Discussion

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:22]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity) thank you so much.
[13:22] CB Axel: Well, I guess I don't have to worry about being called authoritarian. :-)
[13:22] CB Axel: I show hostility to superiors. LOL
[13:22] herman Bergson: `good for you CB....:-)
[13:23] CB Axel: What does that make me? And asshole? LOL
[13:23] herman Bergson: I  think I am either
[13:23] herman Bergson: No,,...just a normal human being :-))
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:23]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity) raises hand
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you an asshole CB? I don't think so
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha
[13:24] herman Bergson: Please anja......feel free
[13:24] CB Axel: You've never been my boss, Beertje, but thank you.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for sure u are NOT an asshole CB
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:24] CB Axel: ty, Bejiita.
[13:24] herman Bergson: Well...Bejiita.....:-))))))
[13:24] CB Axel: Anja, jump right in. If you wait for me to stop talking you'll never get a question in.
[13:24] herman Bergson grins
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:25] herman Bergson: true!
[13:26]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): I am concerned with the fascism scale. Here fascism is semantically linked to the right side, however there are authoritarians  in both wings...  Does  the F-scale have amore general meaning? Where does populism fall?
[13:26] herman Bergson: Well...
[13:27] herman Bergson: they have tried to find authoritarian personalities on the left significant results
[13:27] herman Bergson: I  would qualify populism as right wing politics
[13:28]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): So then, dictatorships that pretend being in the left, are they in the right in reality'
[13:28]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): ?
[13:29] herman Bergson: ANother point is, that this is sociology from the 1960s and 1970s....these days sociology isn't that popular anymore
[13:29] herman Bergson: Ahh...interesting question...
[13:29]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): sorry for the typos
[13:29] herman Bergson: dont worry....we are masters in typonese
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): our best language
[13:30]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity) smiles
[13:30] herman Bergson: But to answer your question.....
[13:30] herman Bergson: So-called left wing dictatorships show all characteristics of fascist dictatorships
[13:31] roos Gartner is offline.
[13:31] herman Bergson: I'd say....
[13:31]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): here we say, indeed, that the extremes touch each other.
[13:32] herman Bergson: the moment a political system turns into a dictatorship it isn't right wing or left is just WRONG....disrespecting human rights
[13:32]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity) nods
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa thats true
[13:33] CB Axel: I tend to think of left wingers as able to work together whereas right wingers want someone in charge, so as soon as a "leftist" person takes charge and becomes a dictator he is no longer on the left. Maybe?
[13:33] CB Axel: I'm just thinking out loud here.
[13:33] herman Bergson: I agree, CB
[13:34] CB Axel: When does a dictator ever work for the people? It seems once they get power they use it only for themselves.
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:34] herman Bergson: The moment you behave like a dictator you lose political just become someone who disrespects human become a criminal against mankind
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dictatorship = use other people for your own good
[13:34] CB Axel nods
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not use but oppress
[13:35] herman Bergson: yes...something like that, Bejiita
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more
[13:35]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): nevertheless, I would distinguish between authoritarianism and economic models.
[13:35] herman Bergson: Self enrichment...murder of opponents at will.....killing free press
[13:35] herman Bergson: Can you elaborate on that Anja?
[13:39] herman Bergson: Anyway...we entered a period of history and our search ofter the legacy of the 20th century, which I remember.....
[13:39] herman Bergson: It is funny to realize that I then was a student.....:-)
[13:39]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): Yes, in my opinion, left-thought economy assumes altruist collaboration between members of the society, a sharing of goods, tasks and responsabilities. However, Capitalism is based in the fact posed by Hume that people is rather selfish, and do mor efforts for themselves than for the community. For instance, the fisherman does not sell fish because he wants to share fish, but because he wants to live and improve his own economy.
[13:40] herman Bergson: I had a friend....very left.....he advised me to subscribe to the PEKING REVIEW for instance
[13:41]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): However both views of economy fail under an authoritarian regime.
[13:43] herman Bergson: I'd say that an authoritarian regime isn't an economic system, but a system to protect a certain ruling group in a society
[13:43]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): indeed
[13:43]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): hat was my point
[13:44] CB Axel: So dictators are neither left or right.
[13:44] herman Bergson: on the other hand, I agree with you.....what we call "left" emphasizes social solidarity and sharing, general healthcare, where right wing politics is more focued on the self
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes CB...I'd say that indeed
[13:45]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity) nods
[13:45] herman Bergson: Fidel Castro was a definition.....he just ignored fundamental human rights
[13:45] herman Bergson: you don't need to be left or right for that....only a social criminal
[13:47] CB Axel: How do dictators keep getting power? Who lets them do that?
[13:48] herman Bergson: What I see happening these days is, that we have almost lost that idea of social solidarity, general sharing of wealths, supporting the less fortunate in our societies
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think fear has to do with that
[13:48] CB Axel: Do they just scare people into thinking that only the dictator can solve their problems?
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): his henchmen who are just as evil murder everyone trying to get to him
[13:48] herman Bergson: THAT CB is a MOST interesting question......which puzzles me too all the time
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or like khadaffi droppig bombs blowing everyone up until there is no one more alive to throw him over, in the end they got the bastard though
[13:49] herman Bergson: But a dictator never comes alone.....
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its pure evil
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true herman
[13:49] herman Bergson: He is surrounded by a group of people who want to profit from his power....
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he as said have others around him who are just as shitty and evil
[13:50]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): There are many ways of keeping a dictatorship..  for instance dividing people talking about "internal" and external enemies.
[13:50] herman Bergson: and I guess then it simple comes down to status, and greed only
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thats how they can stay in power for so long without being overthrown
[13:50]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): Fostering hate and dividing people in two: goods and evils
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or like in north korea, poverty and brainwashing
[13:50] herman Bergson: Ah yes...Anja...just yell...FAKE NEWS!!!!!
[13:51] herman Bergson: and you already have made it
[13:51]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): °°°·.°·..·°¯°·._.· ģίģģĻέş ώίĻȡĻч  ·._.·°¯°·.·° .·°°°
[13:51] herman Bergson: Just yell....SOCIALISTS....and it is bulls eye
[13:51] CB Axel: But why do people fall for it? Why do the believe what the dictator says even when the truth is pointed out to them?
[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes CB.....why do people support an immoral person like Trump?
[13:52] herman Bergson: Why....
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, the only explanation i have is people don't learn from history (hitler ect) but swallow the bait without thinking
[13:52]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): This is an old topic...
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): history
[13:52] herman Bergson: Why did they cheer for Hitler
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): people are sheep
[13:53] herman Bergson: What is it in human beings to behave like that indeed?????
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that i dont get either, he agitated everyone like an angry screaming hate mob
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if one does it, all do it
[13:53] herman Bergson: Seems so Beertje....beeeeeee
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:53]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): Cicero made Scipio talk about it in his Republic book... 200 years bC... I think
[13:53] herman Bergson: It is of all times Anja....unbelievable
[13:54]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): when democracy gets corrupted, then "savers" appear.
[13:54] herman Bergson: ahhh yes...
[13:54] herman Bergson: But there is one positive observation....
[13:54] herman Bergson: Democracy IS a strong system....
[13:55] herman Bergson: Like neo-liberalism is a strong economic system too
[13:55] herman Bergson: even the Chinese comply
[13:56] herman Bergson: it is not the  Holy Grail....but it works in relation to human rights
[13:56] herman Bergson: In that sense I agree with Fukuyama :-)
[13:58] herman Bergson: For those who dont know Fukuyama...just use Google :-))
[13:58] herman Bergson: Well...I think we covered a lot of ground today :-)
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:59] herman Bergson: SO...unless you have that final last question burning in your mind......
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Yoshihiro Francis Fukuyama is an American political scientist, political economist, and author. Fukuyama is known for his book The End of History and the Last Man, which argued that the worldwide spread of liberal democracies and free market capitalism of the West and its lifestyle may signal the end point of humanity's sociocultural evolution and become the final form of human government
[13:59] herman Bergson: May I thank you for your participation again....
[13:59] herman Bergson smiles
[14:00] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje :-)
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[14:00] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[14:00] herman Bergson: Really interesting scholar
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in other words our mass consumption hysteria is where we will forever be?
[14:00]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): thank you Beertje
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): consumerism society
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you're welcome Ana
[14:00] herman Bergson: lol...oh dear..Bejiita....what an observation....
[14:01] herman Bergson: my goodness....maybe you are right :-))
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well well we can only hope for the best
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): untill next time cu
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Bejiita
[14:01]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): bye bijita
[14:01] herman Bergson: Right...keep up the good spirits, Bejiita :-)))
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i will
[14:01]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): Beijita*
[14:01] herman Bergson: I'll do anyway
[14:01] CB Axel: I'll see you all Thursday. I'm off to check on all my new animesh horses. :-)
[14:02] CB Axel: Bye
[14:02] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Hermand and Class!
[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten CB
[14:02] herman Bergson: Bye CB...
[14:02]  Aŋą Dε Mεŋą (anton.verity): see you CB
[14:02] bergfrau Apfelbaum: babaa Beertje:-))


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