It really must have been an exciting period, the years between 1450 and 1650. Keep in mind, that everything in those days went at a slow pace.
The information was stored in only a few places and even in only a few heads of extremely gifted and intelligent people scattered over Europe.
Philology, the reconstruction of ancient texts, was the intellectual activity among scholars and at universities.
In Italy the ancient texts of the Greek and Romas were rediscovered, but you can imagine that reconstructing the original text of the bible was of course also one of the subjects.
Until around 1480 the reconstruction of old texts was more a matter of subjective guesswork than based on well-founded theories.
All this changed dramatically with the work of Angelo Poliziano (1454 - 1494).
In his "Miscellanea" from 1489, he describes a theoretical and empirically motivated method that allows for precise comparison and evaluation of sources.
Predictions according to this method could then be tested against newly discovered manuscripts, in order to improve the method again.
The chronology of manuscripts became important. older manuscripts were again more reliable than more recent ones.
As obvious as Poliziano's method may sound today, a historically based reconstruction had not been proposed before in European philology
There is thus a pattern in these successive redirections of surviving manuscripts to the original source,
and this pattern indicates a recurrent interaction between theory and empirical data, whereby a theory not only provides a rationale for the empirical data
but can also be tested against new manuscripts, the empirical sources in philology, which then in turn have an impact on the theory of text reconstruction,
leading to an adjustment or sharpening of the underlying principles, which are again tested against empirical data, and so on.
This pattern of inference, now referred to as the empirical cycle, is one of the most fascinating aspects of early modern philology.
What we are witnessing here is the birth of a way of thinking, which was more or less completely new for scholars in those days.
It is amazing to see this happening, the route the human brain takes, the conclusion that our starting point lies not in all kinds of unfounded beliefs, but in the empirical dat we gather.
That, of course, would lead to conflicts with biblical beliefs. Not only the chronology of old manuscripts, but chronology as such was a hot topic in those days, in what order in time happened things.
One famous chronology is the 6 days god needed to create the earth. Day one light and darkness, day two......and so on.
An important question in those days was: when was the earth created? According to chronology based on the bible god created the earth around 4000 BC.
if you want to know it exactly, according to the Irish bishop James Ussher in his "Annalium pars posterior" from 1654, it happened on Sunday, October 23, 4004 BC.
However, the most famous philologist of his time, Joseph Justus Scaliger (1540 - 1609) reconstructed the chronology of the Egyptian Pharao dynasties.
Based on conclusions found by using the empirical method he had to conclude that the first dynasty started around 5285 BC.
That was almost 1300 years earlier than god created the earth. How do we solve that problem?
Thank you for your attention again.....
The Discussion
[13:28] Jane Fossett: Aliens!
[13:28] herman Bergson: Something like that perhaps Jane :-))
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehee
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a bug in matrix
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ?
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:29] herman Bergson: Oh..what I forgot to mention....according to that bishop god worked on Sunday....very odd ^_^
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not drinking beer then?
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but he finished the earth just before Christmas
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then showered everyone with presents
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well...the timing was a problem
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in other words god = santa
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:31] herman Bergson: But I can tell you how he solved this problem.....
[13:31] herman Bergson: you have two options....
[13:31] herman Bergson: 1. your empirical data are not correct....
[13:32] herman Bergson: or your theory is incomplete or wrong....
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hmm
[13:32] Jane Fossett: or both
[13:32] herman Bergson: Option 1 was impossible
[13:32] herman Bergson: In those days questioning the truth of the bible was suicide....
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): couldn't he just say...sorry I was wrong?
[13:32] herman Bergson: So he modified his theory
[13:33] herman Bergson: NO, for his empirical data were correct
[13:33] herman Bergson: But what you see here si how empiricism begins to gain more and more influence in science
[13:34] oola Neruda: ahhhhhhh
[13:34] herman Bergson: and that it did not start in the natural sciences but especially in philology
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[13:35] herman Bergson: The development of the scientific method is a slow process that began in that period in history
[13:36] herman Bergson: Later we'll answer the question if this is a typical European matter or did it happen in other cultures too?
[13:36] herman Bergson: Interesting aspect of the White Supremacy Debate :-)
[13:37] bergfrau Apfelbaum: aliens, was the best answer.... they built us and are watching us :-)
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ID
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Intelligent Design
[13:37] herman Bergson: But who built the aliens Bergie?
[13:38] bergfrau Apfelbaum: god?
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its aliens all the way down!
[13:38] herman Bergson: Who built the Intelligence Bejiita?
[13:38] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to the turthetable
[13:38] bergfrau Apfelbaum: with his 3d printer
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:38] bergfrau Apfelbaum: like the Bejiita
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahahah
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i made a spider, not an alien or turtle today
[13:38] herman Bergson: I prefer Darwin's answer of these questions :-)
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is that answer?
[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: me too
[13:40] herman Bergson: that we come from the sea Beertje....
[13:40] herman Bergson: Life began in the seas of this planet
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes i know, but who made the intelligence?
[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: no world no sea
[13:40] herman Bergson: our intelligence?
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): of intelligence of the universe
[13:41] herman Bergson: intelligence is a human faculty only....and some animals can behave intelligent
[13:41] herman Bergson: a universe ....how can it have intelligence?
[13:42] herman Bergson: it is a biological product carried by living organisms
[13:42] oola Neruda: the universe is not intelligent... it just evolves through happy accidents
[13:42] herman Bergson: Like life did ...
[13:43] oola Neruda: and stars exploding.... causing different chemicals etc. to be spewed out and bunched up here and there
[13:44] oola Neruda: due to gravity etc
[13:44] herman Bergson: No hablo Portugese, pero espero que FNNK puede comprender todo aqui :-)
[13:44] fnkk: ok
[13:44] herman Bergson: Just to say hello to our new guesat
[13:45] fnkk: your all lost
[13:45] Jane Fossett: none of that is intelligence. Intelligence is how the brain interprets the world to explain the past and predict the future.
[13:45] herman Bergson: ok.... I lost you there :-)
[13:45] herman Bergson: Indeed Jane
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): BRING ON THE ALIENS!
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:45] Jane Fossett: physics is not 'intelligence' is all.
[13:45] fnkk: i would enlighten you but i forgot the question
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:46] herman Bergson: Isn't of much help to understand our existence Bejiita
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess not
[13:47] herman Bergson: The only thing the existence of aliens can do is to make our existence relative
[13:47] herman Bergson: And more interesting.....
[13:48] herman Bergson: this discussion we never could have had would we have lived in 1490 or 1520 :-)
[13:48] bergfrau Apfelbaum: maybe the aliens lived in the water before until it got too wet for them
[13:48] herman Bergson: At least some things have changed
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:48] herman Bergson: I think there are people who believe that they are still there Bergie :-))
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however strange still if were all alone in the entire universe
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's rather wet in the oceans
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Nice!
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one not so theory is there have been aliens but that have all nuked themselves already and we will end up doing the same in the end
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the big filter i think its called that theory
[13:50] herman Bergson: the funny thing with such a theory is that aliens use our kind of technology
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: nobody knows who is still here:-)
[13:51] oola Neruda: too many assumptions about what is called life
[13:51] herman Bergson: maybe there is life on other planets...but why should it look like life on earth?
[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes oola
[13:51] herman Bergson: This was a world of dinosaurs....and accidentally it became a world of primates
[13:52] fnkk: this discussion goes nowhere i want my money back
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm luckily those are not around anymore, dont want to be eaten by a T Rex klompering around in th city!
[13:53] Jane Fossett: biological life may just be a relatively short transition to a more pure form of intellient 'machines'
[13:53] herman Bergson: You are right FNNK :-)
[13:53] herman Bergson: But sometimes we like to freewheel a little :-)
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:54] herman Bergson: Just for fun and arguments
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): important thing
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): VERY important!
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): extends the lesson
[13:54] herman Bergson: But the main thing you could learn from today's lecture is that the scientific method started in philology and not in natural sciences what many think
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:55] oola Neruda: THAT IS interesting...
[13:55] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:55] herman Bergson: and second...that knowledge based on (unfounded) beliefs slowly began to move towards knowledge based on empirical facts
[13:56] herman Bergson: While you see today that the opposite is happening again among a number of people:-)
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly yes
[13:56] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but
[13:56] oola Neruda: also interesting is that there are so many people who stick with the guesswork
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least most of us head in rightdirections
[13:57] oola Neruda: do ew?
[13:57] oola Neruda: we
[13:57] herman Bergson: I still believe so too, Bejiita :-)
[13:57] oola Neruda: in the US... that question is up for grabs
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but those moving in wrong direction often have lot of power as well, like Mr T. pruttin. The Talibans ect
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wanting to go back to the stoneage
[13:58] oola Neruda: sigh
[13:58] Jane Fossett: scientists do not control the weapons; Military and politicians do
[13:58] herman Bergson: Whatever idiot or moron you are, oola, eventually you run into the hard facts....
[13:58] oola Neruda: yes'
[13:58] fnkk: wrong
[13:58] fnkk: just
[13:58] fnkk: wrong
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed scientists want to use the stuff for good
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (mostly)
[13:58] herman Bergson: OK Fnnk....that does't apply to everyone
[13:59] herman Bergson: But I guess....applies to the majority
[13:59] oola Neruda: hard facts don't matter to "someones" that we have blabbing all over
[13:59] herman Bergson: It is amazing to see how some indeed just ignore hard facts....
[13:59] oola Neruda: be glad you are not in the US
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true herman
[14:00] herman Bergson: You have to be a politician to be able to do that, I guess :-))
[14:00] herman Bergson: Not a scientist
[14:00] Jane Fossett: :-)
[14:00] oola Neruda: or a person who listens to them and storms the capitol
[14:00] herman Bergson: If you do it as a scientist they eventually will accuse you of fraud
[14:01] oola Neruda: Feynman is my man
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Feynman rules
[14:01] oola Neruda: among a few others
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i love his particle physics diagrams
[14:01] herman Bergson: .
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:02] herman Bergson: Ok..... I guess we can end our discussion here for today :-))
[14:02] Jane Fossett: :-)
[14:02] fnkk: what did we learn today?
[14:03] herman Bergson: Unless there still is that final remark burning on your tongue :-)
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting stuff
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[14:03] Jane Fossett: Thank you!
[14:03] oola Neruda: that the source of the question matters
[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum: it was very interesting and entertaining :-) ty Herman and class
[14:03] herman Bergson: I told you that at 13.45 in our conversation Fnnk...
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok then i say its turtles all the way to the plupptable!
[14:04] herman Bergson: Check it out...
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:04] herman Bergson: Thank you all...:-)
[14:04] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)
[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): very interesting as always
[14:04] herman Bergson: Thank you Beertje
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