In the period 450 to 400 BC numerous conflicts occurred between the poor and the rich, most of the time between democrats and the rich elites.
Yet the belief in equality by birth and government by the people, political freedom was a widely accepted view in Athens and its allies.
Thucydides (460 - 400 BC), an Athenian general during the Peloponnesian War, stated that during all these civil wars both parties,
democrats and oligarchs, invoked the same ideals of freedom and democracy., but in the end it came down to greed, self-interest and power, All politics was power politics.
In those you also heard the argument, that democracy in fact was the tyranny of the majority.
Plato (428 -348 BC) is one of the great philosophers of his time, who has said a lot about political philosophy.
If Plato's description is correct, Thrasymachus, a special teacher, argued that every form of government was intended to favor the powerful, not just the monarchy:
"Democracy makes democratic laws, tyranny makes tyrannical laws. And what they have made, what is of course in their own interest,
they portray to their subjects as righteous, and they punish anyone who goes against it as a lawbreaker and a criminal.
In my opinion, this is the definition of justice in all states: the interest of the established power. Since the established power is undoubtedly the strongest, any sane person will conclude that justice is everywhere the same, namely the interest of the fittest."
These days we also see attacks on democracy, varying from voter suppression to extreme right-wing views and the call for a strong leader. What tells ancient Greek history us..
A remarkable fact is that there were two coups d'état in democratic Athens, one in 414 BC and another in 404 BC.
In both cases the rich upper-class grabbed the power. In the first one their regime collapsed due to internal conflicts. The oligarchs were kicked out and democracy was restored in Athens.
Then in 404 BC another coup d'état took place. Now a council of Thirty men was installed. As soon as the oligarchs were in power they began to prosecute their opponents under the rich.
Unsurprisingly, the regime quickly lost support, even among the Athenian elites, and not long after, the army of the Thirty was crushed.
According to the historian Xenophon (c. 430 - 354 BC(, after their victory, the democrats behaved better than the oligarchs had done.
Rather than retaliate, they called for a general amnesty and restored democracy and harmony among the people of Athens.
Nevertheless, the arguments of the Ancient Oligarch and others continued to reverberate. They argued, after all, that the Athenian democracy gave most of the power to one social group,
the less fortunate, and thereby excluded other groups, especially the rich, from power.
The argument of the tyranny of the majority would resonate in the case against democracy for centuries to come.
Nevertheless, we can still score a positive point here: the democratic feeling among the inhabitants of Athens must have been so strong that it recovered after coups d'état.
And whatever you may think about the present situation on this globe, since 450 BC the number of democracies has only increased....
Thank you for your attention......
The Discussion
[13:18] Blackrose (blackrose.baroque): thank you sir
[13:19] herman Bergson: If you have questions or remarks...feel free to say so
[13:20] herman Bergson: If you look at recent history...with the collapse of the Iron Curtain the number of (more or less) democracies has increased again
[13:20] Somedirtycat Saule: I think I like democracy better now. When do we get it?
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully soon everywhere
[13:20] AlexLib Subscribe-O-Matic Gizmo: A new listing of literary events of the fortnight comes to you from the Alexandrian Free Library.
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but there are many things to solve
[13:21] oola Neruda: I think of the Heritage society and lobbyists
[13:21] herman Bergson: Churchill once said...of all bad governmental systems we have democracy is the least bad
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:21] herman Bergson: When do we get democracy....I wonder about that question....
[13:22] herman Bergson: I know...there still is a lot to be done....
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:22] oola Neruda: and now, worse than that... self interest of the states who are gerrymandering in a most abusive manner... and passing laws to mess up voting
[13:22] herman Bergson: but whatever democracy you live in....you have freedom of speech....
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)
[13:22] Somedirtycat Saule: I still don't think we had any democracy since the Greeks
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:22] herman Bergson: you are not arrested and tortured at random
[13:23] herman Bergson: democracy means rule of the people...
[13:23] oola Neruda: rule of the money
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): depend on were you live Saul
[13:23] herman Bergson: I agree that when you look at all countries, there are differences...
[13:23] herman Bergson: Indeed oola
[13:24] herman Bergson: The US is a clear example of rule by the rich with a democratic flavour to it
[13:24] Somedirtycat Saule: Beertje, North Europe.
[13:24] herman Bergson: In Europe a lot is under control of the big companies...
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:25] oola Neruda: there are places that call themselves democratic...but money is still the yeast... the final stop
[13:25] herman Bergson: But not everything....
[13:25] herman Bergson: I agree oola
[13:25] herman Bergson: BUt yet...count your blessings to
[13:25] herman Bergson: You are free to protest
[13:25] oola Neruda: agree
[13:25] herman Bergson: free to publish and expose whatever you like
[13:26] oola Neruda: and get death threats
[13:26] Somedirtycat Saule: Protests is a very bad way of getting influence in a democracy
[13:26] herman Bergson: it is not that black and white I'd say
[13:26] herman Bergson: Why is that Saule?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats all we can do
[13:27] Somedirtycat Saule: It means decisions already are made and somehow ppl are not involved enough to influence them'
[13:27] oola Neruda: there are a lot of phone calls and other sources of death threats to people who are standing up for democracy... anywhere from local offices to the Senate and House
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the issue today is we have indirect democraties and parties who promise stuff and then its all a lie
[13:27] herman Bergson: I agree...that happens
[13:28] Somedirtycat Saule: So why even talk about right to protest as a democratic thing?
[13:28] herman Bergson: With so many arms around in your country and regular mass shooting, I would get nervous myself too, oola
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and ooops there they shut down another nuclear power plant and power prixes skyrockets all days there is not storm outside cause they cynically think wind can successfully be our ONLY source of energy no prob
[13:29] Somedirtycat Saule: Its just a sign of ... not democracy
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but our parties think so
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least many
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): least
[13:29] herman Bergson: It is a sign of freedom of speech
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and lot of other stuff
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and people are angry
[13:30] oola Neruda: they raise the prices because they can... and want to... the flow of power can be thought out and spread around if they want to... but money rules in the end
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in southern Sweden they shut down 2 reactors on new years eve 2020 and now the ones living in that region have energy bills of 1000s of dollars
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause there is not enough power
[13:31] herman Bergson: It does as far as it is in the interests of parties involved oola, yes
[13:31] oola Neruda: money
[13:31] Somedirtycat Saule: Whats most important. Democratic influence or the right to have free speech that no one listen to?
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mmmm
[13:31] Medussa Reddevil is offline.
[13:32] oola Neruda: with so many lies around... it is hard to know who to believe
[13:32] herman Bergson: We still have political parties and a parlament
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true oola
[13:32] herman Bergson: You can't say that that doesn't count at all in the political process
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we have a term here in sweden, Democratorship
[13:33] oola Neruda: and lobbyists with deep pockets
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:34] herman Bergson: Can anyone mention one positive aspact of the world / country you live in?
[13:34] oola Neruda: remember who financed the perspective on whether or not there was climate change?... those who sold gas, oil etc
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sure we are free but things are a mess
[13:34] herman Bergson: Sounds as if we live in a dystopia here
[13:35] herman Bergson: We have free elderly care and healthcare for everyone....a good educational system, good universities, beautiful musea and national parks....
[13:35] Somedirtycat Saule: The focus on democracy is wrong imo. We have to talk about influence. I cant understand why ppl want formal democracy as it is useless if it dont carry influence. I prefer a good dictator over bad democracy
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): careful what you say Saul
[13:36] herman Bergson: I am sorry Saule but "good dictator" is a contradictio in terminis
[13:36] Somedirtycat Saule: why?
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like i said, i would be a great dictator, cause im not evil
[13:36] herman Bergson: As I said last time....
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed all dictators have been evil so far
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just causing suffering
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and yes its a paradoxal term
[13:37] herman Bergson: when a dictator takes a decision which I find immoral and I make that public...the dictator wqill ignore it and do even more...and goes on to act immoral
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:38] oola Neruda: look at the record in S American dictatorships... unbelievable
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and it wil bcome worse and worse
[13:38] herman Bergson: We have to discuss ethics and political acts here
[13:39] Somedirtycat Saule: Democracy as I hear it here don't deliver. I want influence. If a dictator support my ideas and 'democratic' parties not, I support the dictator. It's simple as that.
[13:39] oola Neruda: one of my heros is Vallejo... and he was just a poet... look what happened to him...
[13:39] herman Bergson: Supose the dictator discards Human Rights Act?
[13:39] Somedirtycat Saule: Not sure all human act ar good.
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he has to support YOUR ideas?
[13:40] Somedirtycat Saule: Well. Isent it the same in democratic voting? You vote on YOUR ideas
[13:40] herman Bergson: No Beertje....everyone should have the right to influence freely the debate about any issue like happens in a parliament
[13:40] herman Bergson: That is the way we have institutionalized the process
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): problem is the definition of a dictator is they dont listen to anyone, so i could not be a dictator in the way i imagines it because the definition of dictatorship is use the people for ur own good and don't care at all about them or what they say
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i want to make people happy and such so
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i was talking on the dictator
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its complicated
[13:41] herman Bergson: I see
[13:41] Somedirtycat Saule: Im trying to elevate things here. 'Democracy' works so bad now it is useless.
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i want to imagine it as easy but i know its not, just my vision
[13:41] herman Bergson: I disagree Saule
[13:42] Somedirtycat Saule: Thats fair, Herman
[13:42] herman Bergson: It doesn't work perfect,,,but you can't say that the voters have no influence at all at the process
[13:42] oola Neruda: i also disagree.... and am counting on time enough to get things through the legal system to make things more clear and fair
[13:43] herman Bergson: To begin with....
[13:43] herman Bergson: And don't forget polls...!
[13:43] herman Bergson: Nowadays opinion polls play an important role in how political parties operate
[13:43] oola Neruda: nods
[13:44] herman Bergson: and in the US especially, where popularity is a number one quality
[13:44] oola Neruda: but so are lies
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes, oola, Americans have made it into an art....
[13:44] herman Bergson: The best one I heard lately....
[13:45] oola Neruda: YES!!!
[13:45] herman Bergson: A republican was defeated in an election
[13:45] herman Bergson: He got 19.3% of the votes...
[13:45] herman Bergson: The democrat got 69% of the votes
[13:46] herman Bergson: then the Rep was ask if he was willing to concede his defeat...
[13:46] Somedirtycat Saule: I have good experience on democratic organizing in activist enviroment. You might not believe it lol. The larger groups of ppl the less democracy works.
[13:46] herman Bergson: His answer was...They SAY I lost, but we'll see
[13:47] herman Bergson: Some truth in that Saule
[13:48] herman Bergson: An election system is a construct we have invented to get at least some social and political organization in our society
[13:48] herman Bergson: It is based on the thrust we have in the people we vote for...
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:48] herman Bergson: In smaller groups you have shorter lines of communication
[13:49] herman Bergson: so influencing each other and decisions is easier and more direct
[13:50] oola Neruda: excellent point
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:50] herman Bergson: What right wing parties like to do is questioning that trust.....
[13:50] Somedirtycat Saule: What I mean is that democracy may just don't work for larger groups.
[13:50] herman Bergson: We have a right-winger here in the Netherlands ...he talks about the Fake parliament....haha...although he himself is a member of it
[13:51] herman Bergson: As long there is trust in each other and the system it works, I'd say
[13:51] herman Bergson: Just look at the US....
[13:52] herman Bergson: Already months before the elections Trump was claiming that if he would lose the elections have to be rigged
[13:52] Somedirtycat Saule: And shouting in the air where no one listening is perhaps a nice ego kick. I prefer a beer to boast my ego.
[13:52] herman Bergson: that is attacking the trust people have in their system.....
[13:53] Somedirtycat Saule: Hi Sabeen. Have a seat
[13:53] herman Bergson: Hi Sabeen overr here is a free chair
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi Sabeen
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:53] Sabeen Schmidt: hai
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and they let him get away with it
[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hi Sabeen
[13:53] oola Neruda: Fox news even helps him
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:54] herman Bergson: The most important things in society are only based on mutual trust...
[13:54] herman Bergson: You have to trust that a certain piece of paper has a value....that you can banter it for a loaf of bread
[13:55] herman Bergson: You have to trust that the numbers on your bank reciets are referring to real money you posses
[13:55] herman Bergson: You have to trust that votes in an election are counted fairly
[13:55] Somedirtycat Saule: We can build a good state with democracy but not repair a failed one. Thats my belief.
[13:55] herman Bergson: You have to trust your doctor
[13:56] herman Bergson: Up to you to define a "good state"
[13:56] oola Neruda: THINKING OF FLORIDA
[13:57] herman Bergson: Up to you to show what a failed state is
[13:57] oola Neruda: and Texas
[13:57] herman Bergson: the beauties of the US indeed oola
[13:57] herman Bergson: With DeSantis as the number one
[13:58] Somedirtycat Saule: If you don't understand this I think you got a naive idea about either democracy or the state of things.
[13:58] Somedirtycat Saule: or both
[13:58] herman Bergson: I call my country not a failed democracy...I even rgard it with all its limitations a good place to live a safe and comfortable life
[13:59] oola Neruda: but we have bad apples doing rotten things among the good apples
[14:00] herman Bergson: " If you don't understand this " is a classic debating tactic to disqualify your partner in the debate and suggest that he must be ignorant....and it frees you from proving your point
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true oola
[14:01] Somedirtycat Saule: I used belief. You should fall down on that if anything
[14:01] herman Bergson: I keep standing, if you don't mind :-)
[14:02] Somedirtycat Saule: I don't mind :)
[14:02] herman Bergson: Allthough the Athenians succeeded in restoring their democracy twice , I guess we didn't save it here today....
[14:03] oola Neruda: a happy thought... the supreme court has said that the "inquiry" can have trumps paperwork that he keeps trying to hide
[14:03] herman Bergson: so...a good reason to continue our quest into this subject a next time...
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[14:03] herman Bergson: Is that so oola....... \o/ !
[14:04] oola Neruda: yes... the news today
[14:04] Somedirtycat Saule: This greek democracy still look quite 'right winged' in todays views
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a good thing
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he cant hide anymore!
[14:04] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your interesting participation again....
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[14:04] herman Bergson: See you next Tuesday again, I hope....
[14:04] herman Bergson: Class dismisswed...
[14:04] Somedirtycat Saule: Ok. See you next time
[14:04] oola Neruda: be well... all
[14:04] Blackrose (blackrose.baroque): Thank you Sir
[14:04] Somedirtycat Saule: Thanks all
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