It is no surprise that the existence of slavery as a common phenomenon was the source of inspiration of political thinking in Ancient Greece.
The Greeks must have been a proud people. For them, freedom was the highest good.
Freedom in the sense of being able to live your life as you like and not be ruled or dominated by someone else.
Of course that had been people who had to lead, administrators, judges, and so on, but they were elected for one year or appointed by lot.
So, everybody could be a ruler or a ruled person one day: rule by the people was the political system,
It may have begun between 500 and 400 BC., but it didn't last forever. When I look at history the behavior of Putin strikes me.
He gathered a huge army on the border of a sovereign country and it is considered a threat as if he intends to conquer that country.
I'd think, that something like this is no longer of this time, so outdated, but maybe I am a little naive in this matter.
How different it was around 300 BC. In those days it appeared to have been common practice to bring together a huge army and go and conquer the land and cities of your neighbor.
Finally, the ancient Greeks had to accept this reality too. First, the Macedonian Empire subjugated the Greeks, later followed by the Romans.
It meant that the Greeks lost their freedom, their most valuable quality of life. They became ruled by kings or a rich elite or the military.
At the same time, we see a shift in political thinking. Did freedom formerly mean being your own master and ruler in a political sense,
now the emphasis shifted to the individual. Freedom focused more and more on not being a slave of one's own lusts and passions.
Such a moralized concept of freedom was deeply rooted in Greek thought from time immemorial.
Euripides, in his tragedy "Hecuba" (c. 424 BC), already stated that most people were vilified by their lust for money,
their lust for fame. or their fears, and that therefore they could not call themselves free. Now self-control and self-denial were equated with freedom.
Although this is mainly an ethical doctrine, you could also see it as a political statement, namely if you want to say
that the freedom of people depends on their moral character traits and not the political situation. Such an approach makes living in subjugation bearable.
The Greek culture of freedom went through a steady change. Greek intellectuals continued to attach importance to freedom,
but they increasingly identified it with a moral attitude, and not with a political system. This was about 300 BC.
It didn't mean that this political concept of freedom disappeared. To the West of Greece arose a new empire, the Roman Empire.
The Romans copied a lot of the Greek culture, also their political ideas, but that got its own history.
Thank you for your attention again...the floor is yours..
The Discussion
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:19] herman Bergson: The Stoa and stoicism became the popular philosophy
[13:19] herman Bergson: and that kind of heroism....you can imprison my body but not my mind
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes interesting
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): how to survive a change like that
[13:20] herman Bergson: or the anecdote of Diogenes, if I am not mistaken....
[13:20] herman Bergson: The most powerful man on earth, Alexander the Great asks him if he can do something for him...
[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes, Diogenes said...move aside...you are blocking my sun
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks that was the same at the holocaust
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): idea of imprisoning
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for Putin i read a scary thing before. He want Soviet back, thats why he tryes to invade all these nations. He want the terror times of Stalin Lenin and Hitler back. the WW2 era
[13:21] herman Bergson: what do you mean Gemma?
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was celebrated this morning
[[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the anniversary
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i said his name ends also with in
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the thoughts of survivors
[13:22] herman Bergson: ah yes, it was indeed
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shudders
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): were likethat they thought of the imprisionment of the body
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): only
[13:22] herman Bergson: I am really puzzled when you see how people in those days went to war all the time to conquer their neighbors
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still free in their minds
[13:23] herman Bergson: yes...
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): every day i think that putin is playing with the other countries
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:23] herman Bergson: It was the way for the Greeks to "justify" subjugation
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): trying to get them to give up some issues
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and just doing troop training
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as a fear to the west
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is that possible?
[13:24] herman Bergson: It also refers to Plato who didn't like democracy and prefered a wise ruler or king-phiosopher
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or am i dreaming
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i say this to Putin, if u want the WW2 era back, build a time machine and go back there yourself! we others dont want any part of it!
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Putin doesn't care Bejiita
[13:25] herman Bergson: I am still at a loss here Gemma...
[13:25] herman Bergson: What he does is so antiquated....outdated
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): his past life in the KGB i think
[13:25] herman Bergson: In the old days it was common practice but in these times????
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ill-plupp him later as well!
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is a very small man who wnat's to be taller
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a REALLY big
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): * PLUPP *
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as iw that would help
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ehhe
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he lived in and loved the Soviet Union
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shudders
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): which WAS ancient
[13:26] herman Bergson: What he really wants is unclear to me because his demands are totally impossible
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh time will tell
[13:27] herman Bergson: yes...
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it feels like he could start WW3 to get his will though however
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that must NOT happen, i dont want a world war after Covid!
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): uugh
[13:27] herman Bergson: The problem is that he has moved so many troops to the border, that he almost HAS to do something with that...otherwise he'll lose face
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully its no danger
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is creepy
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not really they are TRAINING
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not sitting around
[13:28] herman Bergson: ok...let's regard it to be training excersises :-)
[13:28] herman Bergson: maybe that is a way out
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa and hope it stays there
[13:29] herman Bergson: Here too freedom is the issue....
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like now recently someone flew drones over all our nuclear power plants and all our political buildings
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was it Putin?
[13:29] herman Bergson: a country can not be ruled by another country....
[13:30] herman Bergson: The last time that happened was in WW2
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nuked, ? well nuked it can be
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but as said, i don't want global nuclkear war on top of covid. I want all to be good and nice and happy again
[13:30] herman Bergson: And here again we hear the words....We have to defend our freedom
[13:31] herman Bergson: Freedom is a value worth fighting for......
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): putin still thinks the soviet union is possible
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as it was once
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all those countries now
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): scary indeed
[13:31] herman Bergson: Seems so, yes
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wants them back
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is insane
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the soviet time is over
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it ended with the Chernobyl disaster
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): among other things
[13:32] herman Bergson: The system of replacing rulers after one to four years is a healthy practice...
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:33] herman Bergson: People too long in power lose sight on reality
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Putin want's to stay until 2036
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bejita insanity is not an issue anymore many have that and are leaders
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): every day
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): since trump
[13:33] herman Bergson: yes, a worrisome development
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thenhe will be 85
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): more are showing up running for offices
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes...you have some pretty insane candidates on the shelf Gemma
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): like Berlusconi....he want's to come back too
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some with the idea of controlling the counting of ballots in the next election
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): pffff
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in those states where Biden won and they think trump did
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): UUUGH
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): really believe it
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): amazing but true
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shakes head)
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so forget insanity
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes I have seen such people too Gemma....unbelievable.....completely immune for facts
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): rigth and Fox helps
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and radioactive amulettes!
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats karma at lest
[13:36] herman Bergson: The most creepy one lately was Boris Epshteyn
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is Fox from Trump?
[13:36] herman Bergson: and Peter Navarro
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but supports him
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): teh owners allow it
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): promote it
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes I saw that many times Gemma
[13:37] herman Bergson: Fox is owned by Rupert Murdoch
[13:37] herman Bergson: a very old conservative crow
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they are blaming things on Biden that are world wide
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): inflation for one thing
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Biden can't do anything good according to Fox
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): things that happened because of covid
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and yet the country is in better shape since 1982 is priven
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye economics
[13:40] herman Bergson: Well...we'd better think of some more positive things for this weekend ^_^
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): snow!!!lol
[13:40] herman Bergson: For instance that T is gaining weight by the day :-)
[13:40] herman Bergson: Yeah ....snow!
[13:41] herman Bergson: skiing....sleerides
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): vorige week zag ik een paar sneeuwvlokken:)))
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): shoveling snow
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): AND BEEEER
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:41] herman Bergson: I hope it won't be a too heavy snow storm Gemma
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Blizzards are nasty
[13:42] herman Bergson: But no homework today so that you have time for snow shoveling :-)
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:42] herman Bergson: Thank you all again ...
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): get a snowblower!
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:42] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): snowangles
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and blow it over to the neighbours
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): loool
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