One of the Athenians, who has written about political philosophy and democracy most extensively, has been Plato (428 -348 BC).
What Plato especially wanted was to define the best possible polity, and for him, that was the polity in which people were most likely to be truly happy.
It was from this perspective, the question of human happiness, that he passed judgment on the main Athenian political value: freedom.
For starters, Plato rejected the depressing power politics touted by the likes of the Ancient Oligarch.
Politics was not just about power, he argued. The only legitimate regime was one that acted in the interests of both the rulers and the ruled.
But he also rejected the idea that democratic freedom was an alluring ideal. In book 8 of his "Politeia", in which Plato discussed existing forms of government, he distinguished four forms:
timocracy, rule of a military class, oligarchy, rule of a wealthy elite, democracy, rule of the common people and tyranny, rule of one person.
Like most Greeks, he equated freedom with democratic self-government. Democracy, he explained, is the only form of government attractive to one who is naturally free.
Moreover, Plato argued that the collective freedom afforded by democratic regimes was a necessary condition for preserving individual independence,
because only in free states were individuals allowed to behave exactly as they wished. A democratic city, Plato wrote, was full of freedom and openness.
A man says and does as he pleases, implying that the individual can arrange his own life as he pleases.
According to Plato, individual independence was therefore a necessary consequence of democracy.
If a city was not ruled by a king or tyrant, people would increasingly see themselves as their own rulers and thereby be encouraged to live their lives the way they wanted.
According to Plato, this independent attitude would gradually penetrate from the political domain to the private domain of one's own home and everyone would become everyone's equal.
Even slaves would begin to feel equal to their masters. You would think that Plato was a proponent of democracy,
but he found it problematic that democracy stimulated individual independence so strongly.
And thus Plato, in my opinion, comes to a strange conclusion.
This strong independence, everyone is their own boss, would eventually lead to lawlessness, a state in which no authority any longer applies except your own.
He needed this step to come up with his solution: the state must be led by the wisest people, who understand what contributes to human happiness and a good life, in other words, those are the philosophers.
No popular assemblies, no voting, the philosopher can make the right decisions himself.
In later writings he modified his position somewhat. He observes, for example, "If human nature is to govern all human affairs completely independently, it cannot but become filled with pride and injustice".
Instead, he now believed that people lived in the best possible polity when they were under the rule of law, not people.
This idea is still alive. If you look at America today, you see that the only salvation it has left as a democracy is the law.
Maybe The Founding Fathers had this philosopher-ruler idea of Plato in mind when they put a Supreme Court at the top of their law system.
No one is above the law. We will see......future will tell..
Thank you for your attention.
The Discussion
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so Plato created the concept of laws?
[13:22] herman Bergson: The idea of putting all faith in the law,,,seems so it begins with Plato
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:23] herman Bergson: But I think the Roman Law had a greater influence later
[13:23] herman Bergson: A lot of our laws are based on Ancient Roman law
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well u need SOME sort of rule system for sure, thieves and such would roam otherwise
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so everyone was equal, but philosophers were more equal?
[13:24] herman Bergson: The most important point here is, that NOBODY is above the law....so you also can indict a former or sitting president or lawmaker
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje....that was a somewhat silly idea...
[13:25] oola Neruda: THINKING OF JUSTICE THOMAS
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's what i read in these lines:)
[13:25] herman Bergson: Plato was called to Syracuse and wanted to educate the king there and make him a philosopher...
[13:25] herman Bergson: after him his son...but he failed
[13:26] herman Bergson: Seems to be a problem with Thomas (and his wife:-) isnt it?
[13:27] oola Neruda: also a long time ago when he was sexualy harrassing his assistant
[13:27] oola Neruda whispers: the "good ol' boys did not convict him
[13:28] oola Neruda: and he was a seated Supreme Court judge at the time as well as now
[13:29] oola Neruda: Anita Hill trial...he got off
[13:29] herman Bergson: In fact we still have the system the Ancient Greek invented....
[13:29] herman Bergson: Elected representatives
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:30] herman Bergson: everything based and protected by laws
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indirect democracy as its called in general
[13:30] herman Bergson: we are even better, because every adult is allowed to vote, men and women
[13:30] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:31] oola Neruda: the new state laws in Florida and Texas will take care of that... already people's votes are being rejected and it is not even time to vote
[13:32] herman Bergson: I still believe it is the best we can have
[13:32] herman Bergson: The US isn't a democracy pur sang like most European countries
[13:32] herman Bergson: The US is more a Moneycracy
[13:33] oola Neruda: or even like it's old self
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed
[13:33] oola Neruda: YES
[13:33] herman Bergson: In Europe the rich and big companies have political influence too, but not at a scale as in the US, I think
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the richer u are the more power u have and the poor are left homeless to rot in the guttters instead of getting much needed help cause they are seen as worthless and its their own fault
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sad really
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:34] oola Neruda: nods
[13:35] herman Bergson: In the ancient Greek cities it was a cause of civil war....the poor against the rich elite
[13:36] oola Neruda: the proud boys were setting Jan 1 up to be civil war
[13:36] oola Neruda: Jan 6
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes but that had another reason...
[13:36] oola Neruda: they used those very words
[13:36] herman Bergson: not the rich / poor controversy
[13:36] oola Neruda: yes
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:38] oola Neruda: i should have said "right"... not yes...as in I agree
[13:38] herman Bergson: If everything has been said today and no questions unasked.....
[13:38] herman Bergson: time to dismiss class and thank you all again
[13:38] oola Neruda: thank you, Herman
[13:38] oola Neruda: must run... be well all
[13:39] herman Bergson: You were right oola ^_^
[[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): take care Oola
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu oola
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs
No comments:
Post a Comment