In the early days of the Christian era, and after all sorts of terrible experiences with cruel rulers of the Roman Empire,
people began to take an increasing interest in Plato's Idea of the Wise King as Ruler.
An advocate of this idea was the influential Dion of Prusa (c. 40 - c. 115 AD). His nickname was Chrysostom, which literally translated from Greek means "golden-mouthed".
So he could tell debatable issues in an eloquent way. This was also apparent from the speeches that have been preserved by him.
While Dio's ideas were by no means original, he enlivened Plato's views with excessive metaphors.
Dio compared a good king to a shepherd who lovingly tends his flock and to a ship's captain who alone knew how to get his crew home safely.
According to Dio, you could even compare the emperor to the sun itself. In the summer he gave warmth, so necessary for life,
but in the winter he gave room to the cold, which provided the indispensable rain.
Dio, of course, realized that not all rulers fit this ideal. The difference between king and tyrant lay in the character of the ruler. A true king had to work on self-control and moral uprightness.
An interesting observation is that the idea of the Good Shepherd occurs in John's Gospel, 10:11,14. Dio came from what is now the Turkish coast, an area where Christianity was already fairly widespread in the first century.
The fact is that under the rule of Constantine the Great (273-337) Christianity was given all freedom. With his edict of Milan (313), Constantine promised that Christians could freely practice their religion.
This influence of Christianity marked a fundamental change in thinking about freedom.
The concept of freedom as political freedom, the people govern themselves democratically, was eventually got out of sight due to Plato.
His idea was that it is primarily about human happiness in life and not about freedom and that the wise king is the best person to point the way there, possibly supported by the law.
With the advent of Christianity, the possibility of finding happiness on earth also came to an end.
Augustine of Hippo, also known as Saint Augustine, a Christian theologian of Berber origin (354 - 430 AD) stated
that it is wrong to expect that a political leader could make his subjects happy because true happiness can only be achieved through the grace of God in the hereafter.
Living in the here and now could only bring misery and pain. Even the establishment of the Roman Empire could not have dealt with the eternal violence and strife that plagued mankind.
That we have to live in this condition was, according to Augustine, not the fault of God, but the direct result of the fall of Adam and Eve.
Originally, God had created man as equals and political domination was unnatural, but because of the Fall
people were required to obey political authority, not because a ruler was able to lead his subjects to a good life, but because it was God's will. God had created political submission to punish people for their sins.
Political submission was thus an ordinance of God and the one to whom one was subject was thus placed there by God Himself, or by God's will.
With that, the farewell to political and democratic freedom, as the Ancient Greeks had developed and practiced it, was final, at least at the time.
Now let's see how we get that freedom back, or is that a wrong wish?
Thank you for your attention.. the floor is yours :-)
The Discussion
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): So he said basically that we can only become happy and free when we are dead?
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because of adam and eves sins
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...here we have to work hard to earn that happiness of the thereafter
[13:27] herman Bergson: Just ONE bite of an apple....Bejiita
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well heaven is stated as a paradise and hell well... hell
[13:27] herman Bergson: I still don't get is....
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats why i eat oranges
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i eat apples too
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone is online.
[13:27] herman Bergson: This god is always depicted as the most merciful individual....
[13:28] herman Bergson: and at the very first moment he would have been able to show this he is merciless....and here we are
[13:28] herman Bergson: I still don't get it :-)
[13:29] herman Bergson: And there is that other issue....
[13:29] herman Bergson: His son had come to earth to make it up with him about that apple issue
[13:30] herman Bergson: and yet Augistine says that we live our miserable lives due to that apple incident....
[13:30] herman Bergson: I thought we had a deal with this Jesus :-)
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sure there were apples in this hot area?
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this is still going on today (Apple vs Epic Games fight) lol
[13:31] herman Bergson: Apple is the biggest company now...WITH that bite in their logo!
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and they sue EVERYONE
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with their bloody army of lawyers!
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i thought they grew in cooler areas on this planet
[13:31] herman Bergson: Well..I live my live the way I do indeed due to this APPLE :-)
[13:32] herman Bergson: Full screen even
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the devices are good but the company are made of patent trolls
[13:32] herman Bergson: But to get back to some more serious observations....
[13:33] bergfrau Apfelbaum: grins patent trolls
[13:33] herman Bergson: christianity put an end to the Greek ideal of freedom and preached submissiveness
[13:33] herman Bergson: a wonderful theory for the ruling classes
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh yes
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): must have sound like heaven in their ears
[13:34] herman Bergson: And it would stay that way for centuries
[13:34] herman Bergson: I think so too, Beertje
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the power of the church
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): happiness sex and joy = sins
[13:35] herman Bergson: In coming lectures we'll have to look and find freedom....where did it go...did it still exist as a concept?
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i was getting ready to come in before 1 and a neighbor arrived
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sooooo
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): my avatar ws here without me
[13:37] herman Bergson: poor avatar....:-)
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:37] CONNIE Eichel is online.
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): be social with your neighbours:) thats also important!
[13:38] herman Bergson: An avatar understands that Bejiita ^_^
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i know almost all my neighbours here at least the ones staying, some move in and out quite fast (its not because of my thundering music)
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are you sure Bejiita?
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha well they all seem to like me when i meet them so
[13:39] herman Bergson: Anyway....we can make a note of it, that political freedom and democracy disappeared in the first centuries of our era....
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): all because of christianity
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm sadly yes :(
[13:40] herman Bergson: The positive observation is that we have regained it somewhere in time
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm we are back on track mostly
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje, because ot the idea that the ruler was chosen and appointed by God
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least here, in other countries like Iran and SaidiArabia religion still oppresses the people
[13:42] herman Bergson: It will be interesting to see when we regained political freedom....as we today also see the process of losing political freedom
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we had it we lost it and we regained iot
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it
[13:43] herman Bergson: In the chapel on the other end of my land you'll find a map of the world and which countries are democracies
[13:43] herman Bergson: there is one other positive point....
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): checks out maps
[13:44] herman Bergson: Around 350 AD there wasn't a single democracy on this globe...or maybe some lonely Greek city state, a left over
[13:44] herman Bergson: today there exist real democracies again
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:45] herman Bergson: So...the number has been growing through the ages
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however wonders if some are starting to revert
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes but very slow
[13:45] herman Bergson: I'll check the map and see how many there really are
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or slipping anyway
[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...if you take the US as an example....the system still holds....
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well
[13:46] herman Bergson: and I have good hopes that it will hold too
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the evangelicals would like it to change
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for sure
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): without really knowing it that is
[13:47] herman Bergson: but they are a minority
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): growing
[13:47] herman Bergson: Growing?
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks so
[13:48] herman Bergson: WHile in Europe the number of christians is steadily declining
[13:48] Darks Adria is online.
[13:48] herman Bergson: We have to check some statistics here Gemma :-)
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:49] herman Bergson: scary idea....
[13:49] herman Bergson: because it comes to my mind.....
[13:50] herman Bergson: how much is this evangelicalism mixed with racism and white supremacism....what religion is it really?
[13:50] herman Bergson: is it typical American?
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): mostly
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but grew out of other sects
[13:50] Anna Adamant Albion (anna.adamant) is offline.
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): https://www.conservapedia.com/Growth_of_evangelical_Christianity
[13:51] herman Bergson: How objective is this site?
[13:51] herman Bergson: I prefer numbers from the census bureau
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ahha ok
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not sure the census bureau asks for religious affiliation
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will research more
[13:53] herman Bergson: I see...
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill check also
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its one well known thing and mantra in US politics. IN GOD WE TRUST
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): religion and politics mixed = not good
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true
[13:54] herman Bergson: That mix canceled political freedom a 2000 years ago
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the evangelicals are also picking up some Latinos
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): from the Catholic church
[13:56] herman Bergson: An interesting issue
[13:56] herman Bergson: We should keep a close eye on it
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:56] oola Neruda: spiced with bigotry and racism
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)
[13:57] herman Bergson: that is what it makes so American in my opinion
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): which they actually believe is christian
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i never got this
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they do not see their racism
[13:57] herman Bergson: Real evangelicals here in the Netherlands arem ost of the time regarded as a small sect
[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): check to see if they are growing there too Herman
[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): might be surprised
[13:58] herman Bergson: I will Gemma
[13:58] oola Neruda: that is not all Christian..... there are just some people who have had experiences or have been influenced by others who are racist...
[13:59] theo Velde is offline.
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[14:00] herman Bergson: Well... a few interesting subjects to think about again...
[14:00] oola Neruda: saying one is Christian is not the same for every person.... they come from whre they come from...and are devoted accordingly
[14:00] herman Bergson: true oola
[14:00] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true
[14:00] herman Bergson: they come in many flavours :-)
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[14:01] herman Bergson: and they fight each other often
[14:01] oola Neruda: plus there is a "learning curve"
[14:01] herman Bergson: learning what?
[14:01] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): expression
[14:02] herman Bergson: let's finish our learning curve of today and get ready for Tuesday :-)
[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[14:03] oola Neruda: growth in the doctrine/beliefs... and acceptance... of same... and application to their life
[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thursday
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): today is tuesday
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes ㋡
[14:03] herman Bergson: thursday indeed Gemma ^_^
[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: He is losing it
[14:03] herman Bergson: lol
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is an old man
[14:03] herman Bergson: I am....losing faith :-)
[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[14:03] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think it is because i came today
[14:03] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...!
[14:04] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): had the day off
[14:04] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): usually not here on Tuesday
[14:04] herman Bergson: oh nice Gemma
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[14:04] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dan zijn we van de waps Gemma
[14:04] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe be here tomorrow
[14:04] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): shall see how it goes
[14:04] herman Bergson: Then we play golf :-)
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[14:04] bergfrau Apfelbaum: https://www.worldometers.info/de/ Here you can see how fast we are growing :-)
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes ㋡
[14:04] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[14:05] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[14:05] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!! again interesting!
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes very good
[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MUAHAHAHAH I HAVE MADE NEW PLUPPS NOW! PREPARE TO GET OUTPLUPPED!
[14:06] herman Bergson: Nice site Bergie
[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm interesting
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