Petrarch introduced Cicero's ideas into political discourse about 1375. They sketched the first contours of the individual, the individual man as a member of a state with a right to speak.
Initially, the great northern Italian city-states harbored these kinds of ideas. By 1400, as the humanist movement began to take hold of the educated elite,
Florence was one of the few remaining self-governing republics in Italy.
It was by no means democratic, as a few elite families exercised disproportionate influence over the appointment of the priorate,
the executive branch of government, but they never managed to gain full control over the political process.
Ordinary Florentines had plenty of room to backfire, especially on contentious issues such as wars and taxes.
The Medici took more and more power and influence so that by 1470 Florence had turned into an autocratic state. Machiavelli noted that the Florentines were again living in "slavery."
He mentioned Christianity as one of the factors that had deprived the people of the incentives to revolt against autocrats and tyrants.
He saw in ancient Rome an example of democratic freedom. His teacher in this matter was the Roman historian Livy (58 BC - 17 AD).
What lessons did Livy have to offer? In his answer to that question, Machiavelli reserved a leading role for the institutions
that, after the class struggle between rich and poor, the elite and the common people had successfully transformed the Roman polity to protect them from the rule of kings and patricians.
The Roman polity had always retained monarchical and aristocratic elements in addition to its democratic institutions.
Nevertheless, Rome had been given a government of the people, and Machiavelli left no doubt that Rome had been a free state for that very reason.
Machiavelli did not limit his analysis to Rome's institutional framework. He also paid close attention to social and cultural factors that had enabled Rome to flourish in freedom.
He praised the religiosity of the Romans, who had imbued them with a respect for the law and their rulers, thus ensuring that their freedom never turned into anarchy.
Last but not least, the Romans had also maintained socio-economic equality by keeping the treasury rich but their citizens poor.
That, too, had made an important contribution to preserving freedom, as extreme differences in wealth led to neighborly strife,
which would eventually lead people to turn to authoritarian rule.
What we see is that when it comes to democracy and individual freedom, the same themes always come to the fore:
the organization of institutions that guarantee the participation of the people, respect for the Law and, above all, the fight against far-reaching social and economic differences between individual citizens,
because that gives rise to social unrest and, in extreme cases, revolts.
It does not seem an exaggeration to me to state that essentially little has changed with regard to these themes. They still seem up-to-date to me and the first targets to corrupt them for aspirant autocrats.
Thank you for your attention again....
The Discussion
[13:14] herman Bergson: To be honest....what is going on in the US today illustrates all this perfectly....
[13:15] herman Bergson: An aspirant autocrat who tries to undermine the institutions of democracy
[13:15] oola Neruda: amen
[13:15] herman Bergson: big differences between poor and rich
[13:15] herman Bergson: The call for a strong leader...
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:16] herman Bergson: just imagine that this happened exactly the same a 1000 years ago..
[13:16] herman Bergson: same process
[13:16] herman Bergson: same debates
[13:17] herman Bergson: It amazes me
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): repeat repeat repeat forever
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no change
[13:17] herman Bergson: Not really Bejiita...I still believe to see some progress
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like an old LP record gotten stuck
[13:18] Somedirtycat Saule: It is not easy to debate with different opinions here. I suggest that before bringing i the current events the subject of the speach is debated.
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well some things i surly have progressed but still
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what progress do you see Herman?
[13:19] herman Bergson: The democratic institutions are stronger
[13:19] herman Bergson: What do you mean Saule?
[13:19] Somedirtycat Saule: '[13:14:40] herman Bergson: To be honest....what is going on in the US today illustrates all this perfectly....
[13:20] herman Bergson: The subject of today is how democratic freedom is experienced....then and today
[13:21] herman Bergson: And a second matter is that there is no problem with different opinions here, I'd say
[13:21] Somedirtycat Saule: I misread something somewhere then
[13:21] herman Bergson: If you disagree with something just say so...thaht is what we are here for
[13:21] herman Bergson: Happens...
[13:22] herman Bergson: What I meant to say it, that what Machiavelli pointed out and wrote about, is happening today in the very same way
[13:23] herman Bergson: For greedom and democracy you need institutions to protect them
[13:23] herman Bergson: independent justice system, representatives chosen by voting
[13:23] herman Bergson: free elections
[13:24] herman Bergson: respect for the Law
[13:24] herman Bergson: and some socio-economical egalitarianism
[13:25] herman Bergson: which again relates to the problem of private property, which we discussed in the previous lecture
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:26] herman Bergson: you may of course disagree :-)
[13:27] Somedirtycat Saule: still your talks are interesting, Herman.
[13:27] herman Bergson: thank you
[13:27] herman Bergson: you mean, you disagree Saule?
[13:27] herman Bergson: Feel free to speak up....:-)
[13:28] Somedirtycat Saule: Not today.
[13:28] herman Bergson smiles
[13:28] herman Bergson: easy class today ^_^
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are all a bit quiet
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:29] herman Bergson: Freedom is on the line atm in the Ukraine....a country with free people...
[13:29] herman Bergson: and a neighbor who denies their freedom
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes sadly enough
[13:30] oola Neruda: I found it interesting..... because in all the art history lectures.... and I've sat through a million and even taught it... this subject did not come up
[13:30] herman Bergson: On a world scale we have few institutions to maintain peace
[13:30] oola Neruda: and, frankly, it would have put a different slant on many of the issues re: art
[13:30] oola Neruda: and artists
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:30] Sabeen Schmidt: yes the talk is over already?
[13:31] herman Bergson: not yet Sabeen :-)
[13:31] Sabeen Schmidt: biden is an autocrat?
[13:31] Somedirtycat Saule: According to some the Ukrainians are rhe rape babies to my ancestors.
[13:31] herman Bergson: no...his predecessor tried to become one
[13:31] Somedirtycat Saule: Am from Sweden
[13:31] oola Neruda: the subject was only glanced off of... puts the Medici in quite a different light
[13:32] herman Bergson: `The Medici were autocratic politicians
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:32] herman Bergson: I guess they primarily loved money and power
[13:33] oola Neruda: yes.... but are presented as enlightened and beneficent
[13:33] herman Bergson: I still wonder why some people have such a lust for power
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed
[13:34] oola Neruda: follow the money
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to dominate entire nations and even the entire planet
[13:34] Somedirtycat Saule: The lust for power is more instinctual than intellectual
[13:34] herman Bergson: then you must have a lust for money oola....
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess its that MORE MORE MOOOORE! syndrome again
[13:34] herman Bergson: same problem
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): narcist characters
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yhe impossibility to appreciate an "enough'
[13:35] Somedirtycat Saule: So it is more of a psychological or biological topic than political or even philosophical
[13:36] herman Bergson: You could think so indeed Saule....
[13:36] oola Neruda: or to care if you are going to cause global warming with your actions....regardless that you will also be a victim of it... money comes first
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it might me
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): be
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed as long u can make money nothing else matters
[13:36] oola Neruda: oil companies for example
[13:36] herman Bergson: The bio-psychological need for security drives man to accumulate as much as possible
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): profit profit profit
[13:37] Sabeen Schmidt: what makes people selfish then
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then that profit makes u ignore safety and BAUUUUUUM! i have deepwater horizon
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you
[13:37] herman Bergson: only making profit satisfies the feeling of safety
[13:37] oola Neruda: back to Christianity and such people as the good Samaritan...
[13:37] Somedirtycat Saule: Politics is itself actually leaning left and is in the interest of the less privileged
[13:37] Sabeen Schmidt: poor self regulation, operating in a bubble that makes them copy others ( lack of oversight)
[13:38] herman Bergson: What makes people selfish.....good question
[13:38] Somedirtycat Saule: The powerful and wealthy can live without politics
[13:38] herman Bergson: fear...
[13:38] herman Bergson: the need for security and safety
[13:38] Somedirtycat Saule: So left and right politics is a false dichotomy
[13:38] Sabeen Schmidt: why lobby Washington then silly :P
[13:39] herman Bergson: Right = selfishness first ....left = solidarity first
[13:39] Sabeen Schmidt: right
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:39] Somedirtycat Saule: Specially when I see leftist supporting Ukraine in the current conflict
[13:39] Sabeen Schmidt: eh they will lose :(
[13:40] herman Bergson: I have no idea what will come out of that conflict....Unpredictable....
[13:40] Somedirtycat Saule: Herman, No politics = selfishness first
[13:40] herman Bergson: That peculiar speech of Putin last night....his history of the Ukraine...
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)
[13:41] herman Bergson: No politics = selfishness first = Thomas Hobbes...homo homini lupus
[13:41] Somedirtycat Saule: Putin is a really good leader. A enemy you should respect
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ?
[13:42] herman Bergson: From his point of view....Russia...he might be indeed Saule
[13:42] Somedirtycat Saule: yes
[13:42] herman Bergson: But in realtion to the rest of the world?????
[13:42] herman Bergson: His support for Assad in Syria for instance....
[13:42] Somedirtycat Saule: That is a big question
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well he is evil so
[13:43] Somedirtycat Saule: What is the rest of the world?
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the evil dudes stick together
[13:43] herman Bergson: evry country that is not Russia, Saule :-))
[13:43] Somedirtycat Saule: US hegonomy is much more evil imho
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed herman
[13:43] herman Bergson: I guess Trump put an end to US hegemony
[13:44] herman Bergson: The US has lost a lot of credibility among the democratic countries
[13:44] SAHUD 10.0.34 BETA (WEAR ME!): Enter SIM: Laly Carami
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): meanwhile trump launches his own social media network where he and his followers can plan for the next storming of Capitolum
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh
[13:44] Somedirtycat Saule: US have been evil last 60 years
[13:44] Sabeen Schmidt: and us with brexit XD
[13:44] herman Bergson: at least in my opinion
[13:45] Sabeen Schmidt: trump wont ge anywhere with that
[13:45] Somedirtycat Saule: And you worry about the clown trump and don't see the shitty Democratic Party? lol
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully not
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its chaos everything as i see and it hopefully will sort out soon
[13:45] herman Bergson: Explain Saule. please
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u can only hope
[13:46] Somedirtycat Saule: Its to big subject but corruption is a good start.
[13:46] herman Bergson: It is....
[13:46] oola Neruda whispers: I see the republicans as the corrupt ones
[13:47] herman Bergson: They go where to money is indeed oola
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): money money money!
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): follow the money
[13:48] herman Bergson: Do you have some clear cut examples of what the Democratic party makes such a shitty party. Saule...at least that?
[13:49] herman Bergson: Tons of them of Republicans are always in the news
[13:49] Somedirtycat Saule: So why this salt about Russia and Putin. I can understand Particle as he is a Swede. We got this neurotic fear of Russia.
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): If Putin start a massive war in Ukraine what will happen then?
[13:50] oola Neruda: I don't think our leaders poison of kill off their opponents... for one
[13:50] herman Bergson: it IS a totalitarian state, Saule....I fear all totalitarian states....they are a fundamental threat ro\ our freedom
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): entire EU is worried
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Herman
[13:51] Somedirtycat Saule: Russians seems to like him more than Jeltsin
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Putin is as anti freedom as u can get, he captures and murders all of his opponents, true russian stule
[13:51] herman Bergson: I disagree with you oola...
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to try get the old soviet back
[13:52] Somedirtycat Saule: Oponents seels to have accidents in US too
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the time of Soviet and WW2 is long gone,
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and lucky for that, I dont want to experience a such event ever
[13:52] oola Neruda: I've been to China and Russia.... and in both places one is warned ... WARNED.... to be careful what you ask people... about the country
[13:52] Somedirtycat Saule: Suiscided is a new term from US
[13:53] Sabeen Schmidt: oh?
[13:53] Sabeen Schmidt: why ask
[13:53] herman Bergson: What does that mean Saule?
[13:53] oola Neruda: people fear to answer
[13:54] Somedirtycat Saule: Inconvenient people die in custody.
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:54] herman Bergson: Like Epstein, Saule?
[13:54] Somedirtycat Saule: Claims to commit suicide
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): talk or ask wrong question and BAM ur dead
[13:54] Somedirtycat Saule: nods
[13:55] oola Neruda: they fear to answer the questions... for that fear
[13:55] herman Bergson: I wondered about that too Saule ^_^....have seen too many movies :-)
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:57] herman Bergson: Well.....this was the day of Machiavelli :-)
[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for the discussion....
[13:57] Somedirtycat Saule: US is more of a corporation than a country. We should start there before we call Russia a non democracy(which is tru tho)
[13:58] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Thank you Herman and class
[13:58] herman Bergson: Unless we're not yet done saving the world again.....
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one more step forward at least
[13:58] oola Neruda: I agree there... it is a corporation... and it is unfair in that way
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we try
[13:58] oola Neruda: lobbiests are ... kljsaglkkjr
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa indeed u could call it that i guess
[13:59] Sabeen Schmidt: de we even talk of machiavelli
[13:59] herman Bergson: That is what George Carlin said to his public....they own you....this rich elite...and corporations :-)
[13:59] Sabeen Schmidt: well hes dead now
[13:59] oola Neruda: Senator Whitehouse called the Senate ... the house of Mammon.... to their faces... because of the lobbyists
[13:59] Sabeen Schmidt: he wont like whats happening here
[13:59] Sabeen Schmidt: marmon?
[14:00] herman Bergson: Mammon is the God of Money
[14:00] oola Neruda: mammon
[14:00] herman Bergson: Let's continue our debate next Thursday :-)
[14:00] Sabeen Schmidt: hah
[14:00] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[14:00] Sabeen Schmidt: half of them are paid for anyway
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
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