When we review what we had studied so far, the story could go like this. Homo sapiens came out of Africa in small groups of hunter-gatherers.
The social structure of the group may have been like all groups of social animals are organized. There is one leader, most of the time the strongest individual.
From an evolutionary point of view understandable. The strongest individual offers the most protection.
With the introduction of agriculture came an end to the hunter-gatherer life and people began to settle.
It didn't change much in the social structure of the group. After millennia the settlements had become real cities. The social organization had become more complex.
In Ancient Greece about 300 BC homo sapiens succeeded to transcend the biological structure of the social organization and discovered freedom for all in a democratic way.
It worked, but being surrounded by the old-fashioned way, the social experiment had to give way to the system of emperors, kings and tyrants.
The advent of Christianity as the dominant religion sealed the fate of political freedom and the idea of a people ruled by the people.
For the next 1000 years, that is from about 300 to 1300 AD the debate would only be about who is ultimately in charge: the king or the pope.
Til the Concordat (kind of treaty) of Worms in 1122 the pope and secular rulers kept on fighting about the question
who had the right to appoint bishops, who were not only spiritual leaders but had often considerable secular power too.
The Pope's advocates recognized that secular authority was instituted by God and that kings and emperors were, therefore, to be regarded as representatives of God on earth.
But they also claimed that God had given the Pope another kind of power: a spiritual power. Therefore the papal authority was not subordinate to the secular authority but equal to it.
Many of them argued not only that secular power should be distinguished from spiritual power, but also that the former was, in fact, subordinate to the latter.
If the purpose of the soul, eternal happiness in heaven, was superior to the purpose of the body, material well-being on earth,
then the purpose of the body must be toward the attainment of the purpose of the soul and since material well-being on earth should be in the service of the attainment of happiness in heaven,
the power responsible for the soul, the spiritual power, that is the pope and bishops, should supervise and direct the power responsible for the body, the secular power, that is kings and emperors.
In centuries lasting debating and fighting the concept of individual freedom was never a subject. It was simply a debate about power.
The idea of individual freedom, self-government by the people, it was all far away. It was a period of power struggle and justice of the strongest.
In that respect, the Middle Ages were indeed Dark Ages with great contrasts between rich and poor.
But homo sapiens had learned the lesson of political freedom in the past, and though it may seem forgotten for a thousand years, the cry for freedom will be heard again.
It is only a matter of patience and a few more lectures :-)
Thank you for your attention.... the floor is yours...
The Discussion
[13:11] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:12] herman Bergson: If you think about it today....alll this reasoning in those days was based on the belief in some imaginary god
[13:13] herman Bergson: But whole societies ware structured according to these beliefs
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hocus and pocus
[13:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not only in those days, in these days now lot's of this happens now
[13:14] herman Bergson: While writing my lecture I sometimes think.....am I talking about sane and rational beings here?
[13:15] herman Bergson: Yes yes Beertje....I am quite aware of that....it seems to be a human condition to use the mind in this way
[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's all about power
[13:15] herman Bergson: What you actually say is....nothing has changed since then....and I agree :-)
[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's true
[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nothing has changed
[13:16] herman Bergson: Not for everyone < I'd say, Beertje
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): power hungriness and greed will always be a pitfall I guess
[13:16] oola Neruda: I have two phd high energy physicists who are also very deep into astronomy.... they explain things that are really deep..... but when you listen... watch... try to understand... starting with the big bang... and on and on and on.... one can have a deep respect for something going on... that is as deep as the concept of God
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): pitfall
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:16] herman Bergson: There also are a lot of people that act intending to improve the well being of others
[13:17] oola Neruda: like how do you explain.... God
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least this kind of stuff is based on fact and not supernatural hocus
[13:17] oola Neruda: a story.... or something beyond words
[13:17] herman Bergson: That is what worries me, oola
[13:17] oola Neruda: we are only able to think from our very limited point of view
[13:18] oola Neruda: what we are able to grasp
[13:18] herman Bergson: Things we just DON'T know, DON'T understand are given some transcendent flavour....
[13:18] oola Neruda: we want him to fit our needs and wishes
[13:18] oola Neruda: exactly
[13:18] herman Bergson: kind of...ohh this is so impressive....that must be god...or something like that
[13:19] oola Neruda: we want God to be mom, boss, and many other things....
[13:19] theo Velde is online.
[13:19] oola Neruda: our needs... vs. reality
[13:19] herman Bergson: In stead of simply saying.... I KNOW, THAT I DON'T KNOW
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): IN GOD WE TRUST
[13:19] herman Bergson: what Sokrates said
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is god male?
[13:19] oola Neruda: is he even a thing?
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he?
[13:20] oola Neruda: a humon construct to satisfy our needs... an idea
[13:20] herman Bergson: He is a thought in our mind....nothing more...like the green Martian is a thought in our mind
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): God is a beardy man on a cloud ㋡
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): floating through the sky
[13:20] oola Neruda: a kind of filing cabinet
[13:20] herman Bergson: He / it is the product of a deeply felt need in ourselves....
[13:21] herman Bergson: the need for security....
[13:21] oola Neruda: a need for laws
[13:21] herman Bergson: Betrand Russell said....
[13:21] herman Bergson: the goal of philosophy is to teach people to learn to live with uncertainty
[13:22] herman Bergson: the observation that there are more questions than answers
[13:22] herman Bergson: and the fact that we do not, maybe never know some answers
[13:22] oola Neruda: yes... need for answers/comfort
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess thats the root thing
[13:23] herman Bergson: yes....answers are comforting....so we make up some answers
[13:23] oola Neruda: and for the most part we don't have a clue about how to understand the reality....
[13:23] herman Bergson: The conclusion I DON'T REALLY KNOW, seems to scare a lot of people
[13:24] herman Bergson: Take the Big Bang theory....
[13:24] herman Bergson: What was before the BB ....why did it happen 13 bilion years ago and not yesterday
[13:24] herman Bergson: Why did it happen?
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Indeed i always notice the confused faces of my co workers when i start talking about my particle accelerators
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the standard model
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:25] oola Neruda: more like HOW did it happen
[13:25] herman Bergson: The model is ok from a pragmatic point of view...it works most of the time
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes oola....who or what pulled the trigger :-)
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:26] oola Neruda: molocules
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and was this the ONLY BIG BANG?
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very hard o imagine this stuff
[13:27] oola Neruda: they talk about multiple universes... so that could be a good question
[13:27] herman Bergson: Don't misunderstand me....the world we live in...from micro cosmos to macro cosmos is amazing, impressive etc...
[13:27] oola Neruda: and paralell universes
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:28] herman Bergson: We discover patterns and principles and outr theories work....
[13:28] herman Bergson: but it doesn't answer all my questions
[13:29] herman Bergson: But why isn't it an acceptable observation that we have our epistemological limits
[13:29] oola Neruda: if we want a way to live our lives... Buddhism is not "bosssy" or after power
[13:29] herman Bergson: Like Kant concluded....we'll never know das Ding an sich/ the object as such
[13:30] herman Bergson: We only have our sensory data
[13:30] theo Velde is offline.
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Buddhism is not a religion but a way of life
[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes they offen come up with buddhism
[13:30] oola Neruda: exactly
[13:31] oola Neruda: a way of life
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:31] herman Bergson: there are many ways of life... one healthier than another :-)
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agree it is the best
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that or maybe shintoism
[13:31] herman Bergson: why not veganism?
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well then the military vegans will start their raids again
[13:32] herman Bergson: what else makes you pick a way of life other than personal inclinations and preferences?
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's a personal choice
[13:32] oola Neruda: self preservation
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:33] herman Bergson: self preservation....that may be a good one
[13:33] herman Bergson: madated by your physical and mental constitution
[13:33] herman Bergson: mandated
[13:34] herman Bergson: then maybe all kinds of religious beliefs are also based on self-preservation?
[13:35] oola Neruda: but there are a lot of people in the world who do not wish to live ... peaceably.... they do not mind using force for what they want....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in the base it might be that and then it spirals out of control for power and greed
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like with the church before
[13:35] oola Neruda: so... you develop an idea to try to convince them not to do it that way
[13:36] herman Bergson: the group is also driven by self preservation oola, so the group will remove such individuals
[13:36] oola Neruda: exactly
[13:36] herman Bergson: I once read a report on the behavior of a tribe in the Amazone region.....
[13:37] herman Bergson: finally they collectively killed one of the members of the tribe because of his horrible and anti social behavior
[13:37] oola Neruda: remove or convert
[13:37] herman Bergson: convert brings us back to the concept of freedom ^_^
[13:38] herman Bergson: Should n't a person be free to have his own belief system?
[13:38] oola Neruda: that is where law... police come in
[13:38] herman Bergson: I agree...in the period 300 to 1300 the answer is NO :-)
[13:39] herman Bergson: indeed oola....we can have tribal rules of behavior
[13:39] herman Bergson: we have ethics
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if a person has no religion, doesn't mean that he is a horrible person
[13:39] oola Neruda: tribal... institutionalized ... in the church
[13:40] herman Bergson: of course not, Beertje
[13:40] oola Neruda: correct....
[13:40] oola Neruda: but there are things out there to fear... Trump is a good example
[13:40] herman Bergson: We are not free to individually decide what is right and wrong
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed oola
[13:41] herman Bergson: this is due to the fact that we are social beings, living in groups
[13:41] oola Neruda: and he has his followers
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Herman
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders at oolas remark) yes indeed!
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): pfff
[13:41] herman Bergson: Let's give Trump a day off today :-)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least allis as it should be in general
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): here at least
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:42] herman Bergson: There are plenty other examples of bad people....
[13:42] herman Bergson: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot....
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders again) yes
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:43] herman Bergson: Nero, Calligula :-)
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): those kind we don't want back
[13:43] herman Bergson: No :-)
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but Prutin is one of that kind it seems
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i just hope he doesn't succeed his evil plans
[13:43] oola Neruda: so we seek cooperation and benevolance
[13:44] oola Neruda: love
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yes!
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): back to the 70 ies
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep!
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): FLOWER POWER
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:45] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[13:45] oola Neruda: smiles
[13:45] herman Bergson: We all know what is best for us and mankind, but unfortunately, that is only during Xmas time :-)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:45] bergfrau Apfelbaum: mhm
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): better than nothing
[13:45] herman Bergson: Peace on earth :-)
[13:46] Darks Adria is online.
[13:46] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje, because when it goes wrong , we always can make us remind of the good things of life
[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: we all are a miracle! AND! when God created the man, she had a headache
[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-))
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:47] oola Neruda: MOTHER earth
[13:47] herman Bergson: So man created Paracetamol
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe the only thing he did
[13:48] bergfrau Apfelbaum: griins
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahah yes
[13:48] herman Bergson: I guess we might end here our discussion, before we also need the paracetamol :-)
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and Alvedon and Ipren is today the miracle cure for stressed workers at my place
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:49] herman Bergson: So...relax your brain this weekend,,,and enjoy
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and sip a red wine
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa
[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol
[13:49] herman Bergson: and a whiskey :-)
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yum
[13:49] herman Bergson: So.....
[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i had a nice cup if tea with my UE5 session before
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lemon
[13:49] herman Bergson: and cheers ^_^
[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you for the interesting hour! Herman and class:-)
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman:))
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