I really have been wondering, what should I tell you today, for we have arrived at the "Headache" department of philosophy and especially of materialism, because we have to deal with mental phenomena now.
Physics is so delicious for a materialist, where he is surrounded by all kinds of particles, but already here we have to make a comment. Ok, everything is real and observable in physics,
but we have to forget the simplistic idea of matter being composed of small particles. There is tons more in physics than just small particles. There are magnetic fields, gravitational fields, and things like that, which you cannot SEE, but are real anyway.
They are at least real in the sense that they can be measured, comply with laws of physics, and so on. From a philosophical point of view, we have to deal here with the ontological question.
Maybe that is a good starting point to explain to you what really concerns us regarding materialism: it is the fundamental question of what really EXISTS.
The statement that something exists we use quite easily without thinking too much about it, but you know how philosophers are. They question even what we regard as the most obvious.
So, what does it mean to say that something exists? Let's ask our Artificial Intelligence, ChatGPT. Here we go.....
-------------
ChatGPT: In philosophy, the question of what it means for something to exist has been a fundamental and ongoing debate for centuries.
Generally speaking, the statement that something exists means that there is something that has some kind of reality or being in the world.
Philosophers have debated what constitutes existence and what it means for something to exist.
Some have argued that existence is a property that things possess, while others have claimed that existence is not a property at all but rather a necessary condition for properties to exist.
-------------
Let me interrupt ChatGPT, for this is really a statement. Do you get what it meant here? This is what our brain is able to produce. Just think about what is said here. This is really abstract.
Things have properties. Grass is green, you are blond, I am grey. Clear, isn't it? But what if you assume that existence is a property. How can that be, for there must exist something, that can have that property.
I may be mistaken, but this X that has the property of existing, what is that X doing? Can it "exist" without that specific property of existence? This is weird.
And the other option, that existence is not a property at all but rather a necessary condition for properties to exist. That doesn't answer the question of what existence means at all but yet sounds reasonable.
Ok, let's see what ChatGPT has to say more.....
--------------
ChatPGT: One common view is that something exists if it has an independent reality, that is, it is not dependent on anything else for its existence.
For example, a rock exists because it has an independent reality, whereas the sound of a rock hitting the ground exists only as a result of the rock's impact, and is therefore dependent on something else for its existence.
Another view is that something exists if it can be known or experienced in some way. This view is often associated with the idea of subjective idealism, which holds that the only things that exist are the ideas or perceptions in our minds.
Overall, the concept of existence is complex and multifaceted, and there is no single, universally accepted definition of what it means for something to exist. ------ END ChatGPT
Well, there we are. What have we learned? At least I can say that I am happy with your existence, whatever that may mean. Nevertheless, maybe I have given you a feeling about how the obvious can be so questionable.
And all this because we now have to deal with the question in what sense thoughts and feelings exist in a materialist ontology. At least one thing is a fact:
due to the many discoveries about matter in physics the old term "materialism" has been replaced by the term "physicalism" to show that philosophy has dropped such old ontological ideas of matter as small inert particles.
Thank you for your attention........
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (flexes my abs in excitement)
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a brainbreaker
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting one
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed complex
[13:21] herman Bergson: yes I know Beertje..I warned you
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ツ
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well
[13:21] herman Bergson: But really......
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thoughts are now material
[13:21] herman Bergson: the point is that we are able to use language.....
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tho not matter
[13:22] herman Bergson: and we can describe things using language....
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): according to them
[13:22] herman Bergson: and there comes the problem.......
[13:23] herman Bergson: we are generally assuming that what you describe, exists...is there...has reality
[13:23] herman Bergson: although we know that we also can describe dreams and fanatasies
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and even make games of them like i do
[13:24] herman Bergson: So...language is the problem here
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): most of the time we hear only a part of what is spoken tous
[13:24] herman Bergson: and we can name what goes on in our heads....
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I say let the physicists figure it all out and get back to us
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): LHC starts collissions tomorrow so
[13:24] herman Bergson: at least that is where we locate it....thoughts and feelings
[13:25] herman Bergson: and THAT is exactly the problem Gemma......
[13:25] herman Bergson: that won't solve our problem
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:25] herman Bergson: one thing we know......
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:26] herman Bergson: correlations between brain activity and certain thought and experiences
[13:26] herman Bergson: but the brain activity is not the experience itself...or the thought
[13:27] herman Bergson: for instance...this ChatGPT.....
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh some are getting scared of progress of AI
[13:27] herman Bergson: It can talk about drinking , getting drunk and so on.....
[13:27] herman Bergson: but it never will be able to experience a hangover
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i read today that now it cant not even write code but even debug code
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and have offered to stop til it is better undrestood
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true bejita
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): even founders of the idea are now worried
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): creators that is
[13:28] herman Bergson: That is find complete nonsense....this 6 months stop
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): seems so
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we will see
[13:29] herman Bergson: What does it change....not a bit
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the thing is the risk is everyone gets lazy, if i can write and debug with just 1 keypress
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also thats not as fun
[13:29] herman Bergson: the development will go on....
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:29] herman Bergson: Keep in mind that this AI is totally one sided....limited to apparently rational dataprocessing
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so far
[13:30] herman Bergson: And writing code isn't that exciting at all
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly, its still just a machine
[13:30] herman Bergson: In the 1980s I used a tool that wrote the code for my database development projects
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): chrome just released Bard
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): trying it
[13:31] herman Bergson: I just had to say...I want this and that and such and so....and BINGO...there was the code
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah give that to bejita
[13:31] herman Bergson: Ahh yes Bard...heard about it
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is similar to chatgpt
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but not perfected yet
[13:32] herman Bergson: But if you listened carefully...
[13:32] herman Bergson: ChatGPT hardly said anything substantial about the philosophical question about the meaning of EXISTENCE
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha yes
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess idea is nit new
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aso LISP, one of the first high evel languages was created for AI
[13:33] herman Bergson: It may have read some books perhaps.....but existence as a property etc....
[13:33] Bree Birke is offline.
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now GPT 4 is out even more powerful
[13:34] herman Bergson: Marketing babble bejiita....:-)
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tht is the issue each gets more powerful
[13:34] herman Bergson: It is a handy tool, but I am not impressed
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): scaring elan musk
[13:34] bergfrau Apfelbaum: I'm not really interested in this artificial intelligence. Your intelligence is more important to me because you all exist! at least that's what I think
[13:34] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :;-)
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and bill gates
[13:34] herman Bergson: Right Gemma....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i have not tried these tool so much muself but
[13:35] herman Bergson: they scare you with the possible forms of abuse, fake information, fake videos and voices.....and THAT is the real threat indeed
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): actually i find them long winded in answering a simple question then me searching around a lot
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it indeed sounds like terminator is comming for real on those messages
[13:36] herman Bergson: Like ChatGPT answered my question...a lot of words and little meat on the bones in fact :-)
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes fake news or info is scary
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): uncontrollable machines
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and maybe that is why some creators of AI are worried
[13:37] herman Bergson: But our philosophical problem here is the statement that thoughts and feelings EXIST
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:37] herman Bergson: Are they non material???
[13:37] herman Bergson: that we can not accept as true materialists
[13:37] herman Bergson: On the other hand....
[13:38] herman Bergson: magnetic field....they exist we say
[13:38] herman Bergson: speed exists
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): physicalism seems to say yes\
[13:38] herman Bergson: the sound of a falling rock exists
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): air exist
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true true
[13:39] herman Bergson: that are molecules, Beertje...easy to proof...and material
[13:39] herman Bergson: Like we can create a vacuum....
[13:39] herman Bergson: no O2 molecules present
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok
[13:40] herman Bergson: but speed or velocity or thoughts....
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ouch
[13:40] herman Bergson: nobody will deny that they exist
[13:41] herman Bergson: so....time for you to figure our what the verb "to exist" actually can mean :-))
[13:41] herman Bergson: Might cause to me a sleepless night ^_^
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): over and over
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess its a brain spinner again
[13:42] herman Bergson: It is Bejiita
[13:43] herman Bergson: Ohh before I forget.....
[13:43] herman Bergson: Next Thursday there will be no class due to RL obligations I have that evening....
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): UCONN men basketball won the NCAA title last night Herman
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): this Thursday?
[13:44] herman Bergson: A thing like that hasn't happened in more that 10 years here, but this time it is bull's eye :-))
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): 6th?
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yay
[13:44] herman Bergson: yes Gemma..This Thursday.....
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): another vacation
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): plenty of time to think this lecture over and over:)
[13:45] herman Bergson: Gives you all plenty of extra time to figure our what EXISTENCE really means ^_^
[13:45] herman Bergson: You read my thoughts, Beertje :-))
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): been doing that for 15 years here
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): laughs
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will ask Bard
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:45] herman Bergson: You did indeed Gemma :-)
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:46] herman Bergson: ok....
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)=
[13:46] herman Bergson: Relax....
[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))
[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class:-)
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): great again!
No comments:
Post a Comment