The following comments were made in the discussion after an earlier lecture:
Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well..... thoughts are now material tho not matter according to them
herman Bergson: The point is that we are able to use language and we can describe things using language and there comes the problem.
We are generally assuming that what you describe, exists...is there...has reality although we know that we also can describe dreams and fantasies. So, language is the problem here.
In the next lecture, Gemma suffered from an overload, which is understandable, nevertheless, she came to the right conclusion: "Thoughts are now material tho not matter". Such an observation can be a prelude to an 'overload' or in Bejiita's case a stack-overflow.
Nevertheless, we have tried to answer the question of how mental phenomena can be interpreted as material but are not real matter in a physical sense, but not a substance on its own either.
I said that language is the problem. What I mean is this. Let me keep it simple. The theory is that every word has a meaning and reference or denotation.
That means, that you can regard words as labels, or stickers. You see an object, you take your pen and write on the sticker 'stone' and glue it on the object. It means that when you see similar objects you can say: "That is a stone".
Of course, language is much more complicated, but what I want to say is, that we are used to assume that when we use a word, that word will have a real denotation. So, you use a word and you point at some object and say: "That is what I mean."
This is a very simplistic description, for how would you be able to point at fairies or little green Martians or dreams or thoughts? Yet I guess you may understand that basic feeling.... language is about something and has a denotation.
And that is the problem, for we all share this feeling, but what is the denotation of a lie or a fairytale? The language is there. We all understand what the words, used in such statements mean. The meaning is there, but the denotation does not have the reality that the stone had, on which we put our sticker.
We have an extensive language for mental states. We have a science that deals with it: psychology. From a materialist point of view at least we can say that psychology isn't talking about something completely different from what physicists are talking about.
So, in a way, the language may differ, but somehow the psychologist and the physicist talk about the same thing because you assume as a materialist that man is like the rest of things in the world.
That is already a huge step philosophically because for centuries homo sapiens has had the conviction that he was NOT just like the other things in nature
and one of the traditional arguments is to point at what homo sapiens achieves in art, literature, philosophy, science, religion, and so on. Homo sapiens is Nature 2.0 is the idea.
However, this story is selling less and less if you look at the graphic behind me. More and more the time we live in shows that a book with the title "We are our Brain" can and has become a bestseller.
In other words, our conscious "We" is supposed to be identical with our physical brain. Well, ok, it could be. We only have to figure out what this concept of "identity" means. When are two things identical?
This leads us to the well-known Mind-Body Identity Theory and to a bunch of new lectures.... see you on Thursday.
Thank you all again for your attention....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
The Discussion
[ 13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[ 13:20] herman Bergson: If you have questions or remarks...feel free
[ 13:20] Al Michigan: gossiemikkie
[ 13:20] herman Bergson: what's up AL?
[ 13:20] Charvaka: Will you be discussing the difference between Monism and Dualism in the next lecture?
[ 13:20] Al Michigan: it goes all so fast, because ...off this ...
[ 13:21] Al Michigan: well in the other lecture you spoke about ppl thhat believed...erm
[ 13:21] herman Bergson: Monism/Dualism
[ 13:21] Al Michigan: that
[ 13:21] Al Michigan: some ppl thought ...hu... i lost it
[ 13:21] herman Bergson: In fact goes dualism back to Descartes and of course all religions that assume the existence of a soul or something like that
[ 13:22] Al Michigan: but if you work with thoughts and identity
[ 13:22] herman Bergson: it assumes the existence ot two different substances
[ 13:22] Al Michigan: then identity gets another meaning as before!
[ 13:22] Al Michigan: ah yea
[ 13:23] herman Bergson: And as a materialist you might be called a monist in assuming that there is only matter
[ 13:23] Al Michigan: so it is about, is there a separate soul or is soul and body one.
[ 13:23] Charvaka: Just a sec, what time period was the lecture addressing?
[ 13:23] herman Bergson: right AL although we don't talk about a soul, because that is a religious concept but about the Mind....Body and Mind
[ 13:24] herman Bergson: You mean in Indian philosophy, Charvaka?
[ 13:25] herman Bergson: That was as early as 1500 to 1000 BC
[ 13:25] herman Bergson: and all Lokayata and Charvaka literature was destroyed or has disappeared around 1200AD
[ 13:26] Charvaka: Sorry, I meant the material you presented today. What time period encapsulated those ideas?
[ 13:26] herman Bergson: Ahh.....
[ 13:27] Jane Fossett: (I had a car that disappeared around 1200AD)
[ 13:27] herman Bergson: We have arrived past the Vienna Circle...so past 1925
[ 13:27] Charvaka: ok, that makes sense
[ 13:28] Charvaka: That and I think I stepped on Al's comment so I apologize.
[ 13:28] Al Michigan: no problem!
[ 13:28] herman Bergson: The Mind Body Identity theory is more recent already....somewhere 1950....popular in the 60s and 70s. I graduated on a thesis on JJC Smart and Herbert Feigl's materialist theories :-)
[ 13:29] Al Michigan: but dr Bergson?
[ 13:29] herman Bergson: AL got it right, what the problem is...so all is well :-))
[ 13:30] Al Michigan: it all leaves out the question how minds where created.
[ 13:30] Jane Fossett: 'minds'
[ 13:30] herman Bergson: The problem we have to tackle in the coming lectures is the question...what does it mean that mind and body are identical
[ 13:30] Charvaka: are they?
[ 13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[ 13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[ 13:31] Jane Fossett: what else is there?
[ 13:31] Al Michigan: yeah, are they,....
[ 13:31] Charvaka: What is like to be a bat? ;)
[ 13:31] herman Bergson: Well AL....there you point at the best unanswered question in history
[ 13:31] Al Michigan: air is there, sea is there
[ 13:31] Al Michigan: mountains are there
[ 13:31] herman Bergson: You ask, Arew they, Charvaka.....
[ 13:32] Al Michigan: but see mr Bergson, would creating an answer to THAT question not be off more use t o then answer the question what it is,... where i divide mind and thinking as 2 separate things, that might be the same
[ 13:32] herman Bergson: There you go to fast for me....in the coming lectures I'll try to show you in what sense we can talk about identity
[ 13:33] herman Bergson: AL. the answer to that question would answer almost all questions about homo sapiens and his material state
[ 13:33] Charvaka: In your definition of materialism, is naturalism a subset or vice versa?
[ 13:34] herman Bergson: What we know is that we have a physical brain and that there is a relation between the existence of this brain and the fact that we can think
[ 13:34] Al Michigan: what is the name of the scientists that trie to find the the creating of thinking?\
[ 13:34] Al Michigan: what is the he first thought?
[ 13:34] herman Bergson: neuroscientists
[ 13:34] Jane Fossett: 'material state' seems to encompass it all too
[ 13:35] Al Michigan: neuroscientists/
[ 13:35] herman Bergson: What I just said about the brain and thinking is in cact all we really know
[ 13:35] Al Michigan: but...
[ 13:35] Al Michigan: lemme google neuroscientist
[[ 13:36] herman Bergson: of course we know a lot more about correlation between brain activity and some feelings etc...but that does not explain the relations between a physical brain and a real thought
[ 13:36] Al Michigan: A neuroscientist (or neurobiologist) is a medical research scientist who specializes in neuroscience, a branch of biology that deals with the physiology, biochemistry, psychology, anatomy and molecular biology of neurons, neural circuits and glial cells. They explore the biological and chemical processes that occur in the brain as well as their behavioral, biological and psychological aspects in health and disease.
[ 13:36] Charvaka: And by real thought, do you mean subjective experience?
[ 13:36] herman Bergson: please don't dump texts here AL
[ 13:37] Al Michigan: I wanted to make a point:
[ 13:37] herman Bergson: Yes, charvaka, any experience in fact
[ 13:37] Charvaka: (thanks)
[ 13:37] Al Michigan: neuroscientists are not studying this, what i was referring to
[ 13:38] herman Bergson: It is a complete different discussion but in fact all your inner workings, thoughts, feelings, emotions, you could label as subjective
[ 13:39] Charvaka: I will wait with further questions until that is a topic.
[ 13:39] herman Bergson: Oh, for that you won't have to wait long :-)
[ 13:40] Al Michigan: but if all our thoughts are subjective,......
[ 13:40] Al Michigan: how will we ever be objective?
[ 13:40] herman Bergson: yes, I understand Charvaka
[ 13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah i think im on
[ 13:41] herman Bergson: but we are social animals and thoughts get meaning only in communication with others, otherwise you live in a kind of locked in consciousness
[ 13:42] herman Bergson: Well, AL, look at science.....
[ 13:42] herman Bergson: something like telling that there exists gravity is quite objective and independent of subjective ideas
[ 13:43] Darks Adria: is offline.
[ 13:43] Al Michigan: but mr bergman, 5the latest finding tell us scientifically, that gravity does not exist!
[ 13:43] herman Bergson: well that is not the point.....
[ 13:43] Al Michigan: gravity turned out to be just Time.
[ 13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so what keeps us to the ground then? Why do arge objecs like planets attract each other and other objects
[ 13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and what about black holes
[ 13:44] herman Bergson: the point is that all men agree that a circle is round....the objectivity is in the agreement
[ 13:44] Al Michigan: time keeps us here.....some how because we travel ''up'' in time.
[ 13:44] Charvaka: do we?
[ 13:44] Al Michigan: yes.
[ 13:45] Charvaka: How do we know that?
[ 13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the issue with gravity is its on a such macro scale we cant use for ex things like LHC to measure it that operates on the micro level
[ 13:45] Al Michigan: science.... and this science will tell us even more weird stuff in future, so it cannot be a standard off stuff that is, but only a measure off today s assumptions, that are most likely false
[ 13:45] herman Bergson: don't discuss gravity....that is NOT what it is about here
[ 13:46] Al Michigan: a science was about
[ 13:46] Charvaka: What specific science would that be?
[ 13:47] Al Michigan: 13:42] herman Bergson: Well, AL, look at science.....
[13:42] herman Bergson: something like telling that there exists gravity is quite objective and independent of subjective ideas
[ 13:47] herman Bergson: What it is all about is that thoughts about reality are shared among human beings and they discover that many people think the same, sometimes even all people agree on the fact that 2+2 =4
[ 13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): common rules and axioms
[ 13:47] herman Bergson: As I said....we have to discuss this phenomenon of agreement when we want to discuss the existence of the possibily of objectivity
[ 13:47] herman Bergson: for instance Bejiita
[ 13:48] Al Michigan: oh wait i see what we share as ''wirklichkeit, and what is as the unknown ''reality''
[ 13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well.....
[ 13:49] herman Bergson: Well, I guess ...to prevent overloads and stack overflows, we may conclude our discussion for today
[ 13:49] Charvaka: Thank you, I thoroughly enjoy the topic
[ 13:49] herman Bergson: There are many more to come...so keep your gunpowder dry :-))
[ 13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i try grasp some stuff but head is a bit spinny now i feel
[ 13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[ 13:49] herman Bergson: Thak you Charvaka
[ 13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i think i get most
[ 13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i get the main concept
[ 13:50] herman Bergson: There...time to thank you all again :-))
[ 13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[ 13:50] .%3A Beertje %3A. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman, very ineteresting
[ 13:50] herman Bergson: We'll go step by step Bejiita, don't worry
[ 13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[ 13:50] Al Michigan: /me is looking for this compass he used for navigating true rthe world off reality and the world off wirklichkeit, rthingking, where the ... did i saw it last....???
[ 13:51] Al Michigan: thanks mr bergson!
[ 13:51] Al Michigan: ah , there it is... thenk gewd
[ 13:51] Al Michigan: sorry sqw me ... erm
[ 13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki and now?
[ 13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and Class
[ 13:53] herman Bergson: The default routine. I guess Bejiita ^_^
[ 13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[ 13:53] Guestboook van tipjar stand: bergfrau Apfelbaum donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!
[ 13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (takes a munch left over easter candy)
[ 13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well another interesting time
[ 13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): after a great easter weekend
[ 13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebyes! see you @ home :-)
[ 13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu laters all
[ 13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
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