Eliminative materialism or eliminativism is the radical claim that our ordinary, common-sense understanding of the mind is deeply wrong
and that some or all of the mental states posited by common sense do not actually exist and have no role to play in a mature science of the mind.
Descartes (c. 1630) famously challenged much of what we take for granted, but he insisted that, for the most part, we can be confident about the content of our own minds.
Eliminative materialists go further than Descartes on this point since they challenge the existence of various mental states that Descartes took for granted.
Contemporary eliminative materialism—the sort of eliminativism that denies the existence of specific types of mental states—is a relatively new theory, which appeared at the end of the 1960s.
The general idea was that common-sense mental notions, like desires or beliefs, emotions, and motivations, are essentially non-physical in character. Thus any form of physicalism would entail that there are no mental processes or states as understood by common sense.
We are used to describing our mental states in psychological terms, but because historically people had no idea about the working of the brain and central nervous system
this mentalistic language has emerged, speaking about all those processes inside our minds, as if they had a real ontological status.
But now as we know so much about our physiology and the working of the brain and in fact the working of so much more in the physical world, we should look at the mental in a completely different way.
Let me try to clarify what this eliminative approach entails. Suppose you get injured and tell the doctor you are in pain. There is a real pain, you say. But nowhere in your body, the doctor finds this "thing" called pain.
In fact, this mental term is empty, ontologically speaking. Of course, we understand what the term "pain" means, but that is because since the beginning of our history as homo sapiens, we have used words to tell others that something hurts.
A less extreme approach of the mental is, that the conceptual framework provided by neurosciences or some other physical account can or should come to replace the common-sense framework we now use.
This approach allows, that mental state terms may actually designate something real. It’s just that what they designate, turns out to be brain states, which will be more accurately described using the terminology of the relevant sciences.
This is something like you go to the doctor and give him a detailed account of which neurons in your brain are firing and along which nerves signals are sent to your brain to inform you that some bone is broken.
That is quite absurd and impossible, actually. We simply have this language, that talks about pain and feelings, emotions and beliefs, but from a physicalist point of view, we yet assume that that language doesn't refer to real existing entities.
Early eliminativists would sometimes offer two different characterizations of their view: (a) There are no mental states, just brain states and, (b) There really are mental states, but they are just brain states and we will come to view them that way.
What is the importance of this debate? To understand that you must take into account how we look at the world in our daily life. Let's call it the "common sense view". Whether neurons X and Y fire or whatever, I am in pain, period.
The debate about the reality of the mental, however, can also be looked at from a scientific point of view, and then it is absolutely relevant whether we search in the body for pain or beliefs, or for brain states and related physiological issues.
These are consequences of adopting a materialist point of view regarding life. The story is way more complicated, but I guess this might be enough to give you some idea about the relation between the mental and the physical in physicalism.
Thank you for your attention again....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well...did this lecture make sense to you?
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I had a bit hard grasping at first until u stated that pain would be described as a physical thing
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the thing is to me mental and brain state mean the same to me. I have never thought of these things, lain, emotions ect as physical objects byt i guess they did back then
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): pain
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well physical maybe in chemical substances generated
[13:32] herman Bergson: Anyone else???
[13:33] oola Neruda: I don't have the words for it.... but recognize pain when it happens....
[13:33] herman Bergson: oh yes...
[13:33] herman Bergson: But what a already said...keep a clear eye on common sense talk and scientific talk
[13:34] herman Bergson: For a philosopher there is the question: what does EXIST
[13:34] herman Bergson: so...
[13:34] herman Bergson: when you have a term....what does it refer to???
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed but its not a physical thing for sure. When i realized u meant as an actual physical thing the coin dropped for me. But as said i have always thought of like its just chemical/electrical signals firing
[13:34] oola Neruda: the cells that recognize pain .... exist
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true, receptors
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sense pain, heat cold touch ect
[13:35] herman Bergson: THAT is an interesting and telling remark oola!!!!
[13:35] herman Bergson: the cells that recognize pain .... exist...you say....plain dualism actually
[13:36] herman Bergson: the mixture of common sense talk and scientific talk actually
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess i learned this quite early, taking ALs ramble about animated series. I watched the series once upon a time as a kid, the one about how the body works that explained all this really well
[13:36] herman Bergson: in your statement there are cells that do something and there is pain...
[13:37] oola Neruda: nods
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in Swedish it was called CellSam, dont know the english mane, was a french series i remember
[13:37] herman Bergson: and that is exactly what a physicalist would deny
[13:37] oola Neruda: in a way...it is like eardrums...
[13:37] oola Neruda: something moves them and you hear
[13:37] herman Bergson: yes
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Once Upon a Time... Life
[13:38] herman Bergson: but "hear" means that certain nerves are activated
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was thje english name
[13:38] oola Neruda: exactly
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): learned a lot from that one
[13:39] herman Bergson: so..in that way "pain" means certain cells/nerves are activated
[13:39] oola Neruda: yes
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly
[13:39] herman Bergson: so there not pain on the one hand and activated nerves on the other hand
[13:40] herman Bergson: there are only activated nerves, but wer use different words for it to describe it
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the activated nerves would be the actual physical object but the pain is just signals
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interpreted by the brain
[13:40] oola Neruda: right
[13:41] herman Bergson: And that is somewhat the idea of eliminativism...
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): list like sensors on a machine like a robot sending signals about sound light ect from microphones and cameras to its computer for it to interpret
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like how an industrial robot can me made to sense where an object is and pick it up
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): witht eh right add ons
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and sensors
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just electrical signals everything
[13:42] herman Bergson: theoretically we should remove all these mental terms from our language and start talking about our frontal cotext , neurons, synapses etc :-))
[13:42] oola Neruda: but it exists...
[13:42] herman Bergson: then we are talking about what is real :-)
[13:42] oola Neruda: yes
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): too complicated for most of us
[13:43] herman Bergson: But we have a long long tradition of talking about our emotions and pains as were they real things in our lives .....
[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje...it is in fact nonsensical.....
[13:43] oola Neruda: they certainly are motivators
[13:44] herman Bergson: The point is that there are two languages to talk about our inner self....
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:44] oola Neruda: !!!!!!!!!
[13:44] herman Bergson: the commn sense one...so ...emotions feelings desires pains thoughts and so on
[13:44] herman Bergson: and the scientific one....neuroscientific terms
[13:45] oola Neruda: nods
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said, just signals
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not physical things
[13:45] herman Bergson: for a physicalist / materialist it is the issue, that we should not assume that love is something else than a certain physical state of the brain and body
[13:45] oola Neruda: it certainly feels physical....
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa thats true
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of
[13:46] herman Bergson: In other words...in a perfect scientific world....
[13:46] oola Neruda: it is an emotion.... ot a physical feelling
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats just cause brain interprets the signals
[13:47] herman Bergson: when some one says "I am in love"...you could connect him to an analyzer and read all the proper hormonal values of his system that confirms his statement
[13:47] oola Neruda: perhaps...
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however if u for ex hug me/cuddle me, i feel both physical things, (you) and emotional things (emotions, oxicontin rush ect)
[13:48] oola Neruda: that seems like a short cut
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how it works
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least for me
[13:48] herman Bergson: A physicalist would say, Bejiita....
[13:48] oola Neruda: I remember breast feeding my son as an infant....
[13:49] oola Neruda: there was a LOT going on...in that
[13:49] herman Bergson: you experience the responses of the biological organism you are...whatever you like to call them...
[13:49] oola Neruda: singing to him.... looking at his eyes... and on and on
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah can imagine
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed,
[13:50] oola Neruda: there are people who are appalled at such a thing
[13:50] herman Bergson: which thing oola?
[13:50] oola Neruda: breast feeding
[13:50] herman Bergson: Oh...very common here...
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its because EVERYTHING is sexualized today,
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with hugs and cuddles. OOO THATS SOOO GAAAAYYYY!
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:51] herman Bergson: lol
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and yes i am in fact bisexual but i mean come on
[13:52] herman Bergson: What is wrong with being gay????
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a natural crave we all have
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nothing
[13:52] herman Bergson: right....
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the porn industry have made gay = someone fucking others in the ass
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): soo extreme and disgusting everything
[13:53] herman Bergson: lol...Bejiita :-)
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and that have destroyed this completley
[13:53] herman Bergson: I wont do that ever!
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sad reality
[13:53] oola Neruda: nothing wrong with it.... i believe it is the fear of men who are supposed to live up to some "standard of masculinity"
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed not into that at all, shhees
[13:54] herman Bergson: Well...as we are nicely off topic, we may conclude our discussion here :-))
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not at all like me and that friend clinging to each other everytime we saw each other
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just feeling good together
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): great dude
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): miss him
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Live what makes you happy. everything else is unimportant!!
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a nice class again
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dd
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so true
[13:55] herman Bergson: Right Bergie!!!!
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): would make everyone more happy and healthy
[13:55] herman Bergson: Let me dismiss class first, ...
[13:55] herman Bergson: thank yo all again...:-)
[13:56] herman Bergson: So...now we can continue off topic :-)
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you, it was interesting again Herman
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: danke Herman and class ♥
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