Sometimes I run into a philosophical wall and have to think of Socrates' words: I know that I don't know.
For instance, the past week I see a number of videos on Youtube, which want to tell you that observations with the newest space telescope has revealed that the Big Bang theory is wrong.
But I begin with the question: why is there a Big Bang theory at all? Ok, maybe it is an adequate model that can be used to explain phenomena, but then I think:
our brain is only capable of thinking in terms of space and time. So that is the only way we can think about where we are and there is no way to verify the idea that space and time are the real thing.
In the context of materialism we have the same problem with consciousness. If you read the article on the subject in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy... to be honest...I gave up, so much talk and so complex.
I have said it before: already as a student of philosophy I was well aware of the fact that we try to measure the ruler in our hand with the ruler we have in our hand, when we talk about the brain and consciousness.
The Identity Theory is such an attempt. How far did we come? To get back to square one, the point of the identity theory is to defend materialism, and the way is to show that apparently non-physical things are in fact physical after all.
And the apparently non-physical things are identified with the brain. In the previous lecture we already investigated the meaning of the concept of identity: when are two things identical?
But what is the essence of the materialism that is being defended? Originally it was some version of an ontology of atoms in the void, but this has had to be abandoned,
because materialism has always been obliged to take the lead from science, as scientific discovery arises from the same epistemological methodology that materialism espouses, and science has abandoned the atoms in the void ontology.
What the identity theorists fail to take on board is just how profoundly science has abandoned traditional materialism. They talk as if brain processes, dynamic systems of neuronal networks, carry, for science, the full ontological status once ascribed to the atoms in the void.
They imagine that the atoms and molecules that in composition form the brain processes supposedly identical with mental experiences are given by science unambiguous status as entities that exist.
But there is a problem. There exist atoms and molecules, but we have no idea what the deepest structure of matter is. We keep on finding new particles, strange quantum behavior of particles and so on.
On the other hand our thoughts and feelings are real. There must be a link between whatever matter is and our thoughts, feelings, dreams, memories and desires. We plan our actions and form intentions. We form emotional attachments and structure our lives around them.
All of these things are underpinned, in a way that we do not yet understand, by the unbelievable complexity of the brain and its mechanisms, some of which extend into the body.
We need to make connections between the knowledge that we have about our minds and the knowledge that we have of our bodies and brains, but we do not yet know
how to connect this knowledge in a systematic and explanatory way. In other words, we have now idea how matter is able to create awareness and consciousness in living beings.
Thank you for your attention again....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
The Discussion
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:20] herman Bergson: Having watched these space observations, I really wondered...what are we doing here in space?
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we always land at the meaning or cousiousness to begin with
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting for sure
[13:21] herman Bergson: Don't misunderstand me...I have no problem with human life :-)
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:21] herman Bergson: yes Gemma...
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes why are we here the fundamental problem
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed measuring the ruler with the ruler, we can indeed not go outside our bodies
[13:21] herman Bergson: The more you think about it the greater the mystery becomes
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): can only make conclusions based on opur own senses
[13:22] herman Bergson: What are we? An anomaly in space?
[13:22] herman Bergson: Prisoners of our own mind
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well we can use sensors and detectors to visualize UV IR light ect as well as detecting particle collisions. but still. what we see is from within our heads, our bodies no matter what
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for example we can not visualize more then 3 dimensions. the analogy of the Flatland shows this clearly with a 2d world vs a 3d object
[13:24] herman Bergson: Animals live in a completely different world....some don't see colors, some see infrared, etc....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting tho Webb camera is still looking way back in time
[13:24] herman Bergson: Well, you arrive at a Kantian epistemology....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some see other part of the spectrum then we do
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to the beginning
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): big bang or whatever
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....but what does that mean......the beginning of the universe?
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and your tunnel is still looking too bejita
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no clue
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the beginning of the universe
[13:26] herman Bergson: we apply our way of looking at reality to our observations...so we use time as a parameter and distance
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): chemical?
[13:26] herman Bergson: I still haven't found a good solution for the question: Where is the universe situated?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all around us, but is it infonite?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): infinite
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is there just 1 universe?
[13:27] herman Bergson: Because we think in those three dimensions, the universe itself should be somewhere too, I guess?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and what is outside and then we indeed can start to talk about a where lovation for the universe
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Beertje
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Herman
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): another big question beertje
[13:28] herman Bergson: Beertje, I learned that our universe is situated in a black holer....
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): awk
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes i learned that too
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you think??
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): where did tht come from
[13:29] herman Bergson: I have no clue Gemma....
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): where did you learn it i mean??
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we live in a black hole
[13:29] herman Bergson: The only thing I really know is that I live a good and happy life on this planet (lucky me:-)
[13:30] herman Bergson: But the moment I start wandering outside that life or planet, I am lost in no time
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting concept
[13:30] herman Bergson: It doesn't worry me....but I am curious....I would like to know and not listen to Socrates :-)[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and if you knew, what would you do with that ?
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i just checked ai for black hole theory
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is very vague
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:31] herman Bergson: Good question, Beertje :-)
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wold it make your life easier ?
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what do we do with any new knowlege
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we think about it
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the parallel universe idea is a nice one
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh gosh as long as we dont move from one to another
[13:32] herman Bergson: Usually you like to satisfy your curiosity....so if I found the answer I would feel satisfied ....which is a pleasant feeling:-)
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a glas of wine can give you that feeling too
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im incorporating that in my MYST realm actually since i started working on it. part of the story in my version
[13:33] herman Bergson: A lot of things can Beertje :-)
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i know:))
[13:33] herman Bergson: That is not the point ^_^
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but do they exist for real?
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): burgers
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh lol, burger again
[13:33] herman Bergson: No Gemma :-)
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahhah burgers exist for real! thats for sure!
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): happy humbles burger farm is however just a game
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or is it?
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:34] herman Bergson: So, we have mental things and material things and the present idea was that mental things refer to brain states
[13:35] herman Bergson: In science we have at least come to proof correlations
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa now i got an insteresting idea about that,m a bit tricky to explain though
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mind control choips, living inside a simulation or dream, like the matrix
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): implanted by evil aliens
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): crazy idea but
[13:36] herman Bergson: and as we saw...to say mental states and brain states are identical gives us a lot of troublesome questions.....what is meant by identical
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): conspiracy theories
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all parameters same
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shape, properties ect
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): an exact copy of something
[13:37] herman Bergson: At least such ideas proof that imagination is one of our mental qualities
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): = identical
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true for sure
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or the Matrix movie would never have been made
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): identical has to be on the same place too
[13:38] herman Bergson: YEs Bejiita, but this strict identity cant be used in the mind- body theory
[13:38] herman Bergson: doesn't work[13:39] herman Bergson: As I said today......how do we find connections between our knowledge of mental states and our knowledge of brain states......seen from a materialist perspective
[13:39] herman Bergson: So far we have no clue at all
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Like with an analogy, if i in Unreal engine copy what is known as a blueprint (combined object and script item) I get an identical object with all properties and parameters identical however a different instance of it
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do we need a clue?[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same in rl u can have identical objects but always multiple instances if that object them
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): of
[13:40] herman Bergson: I'd say yes, Beertje.....it would help us a lot in understanding how we function as human beings, and what to do when things go wrong....
[13:41] herman Bergson: Like we now have anti depression medication
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so u can address and act on each object individually, for ex, 2 identical balls but i can kick other one or the other,
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): either
[13:41] herman Bergson: Knowledge always gets us somewhere....
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa eys
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): damn, getting drunk?
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well played floorball again so a bit tired
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:42] herman Bergson: Also a solution Bejiita ^_^
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least some interesting ideas to think about
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think some of the ideas about parallel universes comes from being drunk
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or using mushrooms
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we dont know until proven
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:43] herman Bergson: Then you havent read Naming and NEcessity by Saul Kripke, Gemma....
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nope
[13:43] herman Bergson: He talks about possible worlds....
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but have listened to many who absolutely belive in them
[13:44] herman Bergson: wondering what can be true in all possible worlds.....
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): were they all drunk Gemma>?
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the thing is noone have ever observed this, there is a swedish movie called Tangent Room that illustrates this occuring however, different universes colliding at one spot
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and some claim ot have visited them
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its really good
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no clue
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sounded not but who knows
[13:44] herman Bergson: Another brain issue....BELIEF......
[13:45] herman Bergson: is belief KNOWLEDGE?
[13:45] herman Bergson: A lot of people claim that belief is knowledge
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no I think it's fantasy
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4230078/
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they believe it
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as strongly as you belive it is not
[13:45] herman Bergson: all those people who KNOW what god wants us to do, for instance
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): believe
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i got the multiple universe idea to my MYST game from this film
[13:46] herman Bergson: Then we have a next question....can a belief have a truth value?
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but are they real? as said we cant know until we have observed/detected it
[13:46] herman Bergson: false beliefs and true beliefs?
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are believes fantasy?
[13:47] herman Bergson: And what does it mean when you qualify a belief as TRUE?
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm interesting
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seeing is believing sort of?
[13:47] herman Bergson: Could be Beertje...
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if one believes it is true to them it is
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so hard to understand
[13:48] herman Bergson: Butr what do I say when I say: I believe it is going to rain.....no fantasy, I'd say
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but have they actually observed it then
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa things like that for sure but
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you look to the sky and it could be it's going to rain
[13:48] herman Bergson: That is the psychological aspect of belief, Gemma
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then what is the probability, well i know if i then go to the golf course then it WILL both rain and thunder (cause mr whatever up there hates golfers it seems)
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:49] herman Bergson: in philosophy we question the epistemological characteristics of beliefs
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thunder
[13:50] herman Bergson: Anyway.....
[13:50] herman Bergson: this is what our brain can produce :-)
[13:50] herman Bergson: and Gemma might get hungry at te moment :-)
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): burgers"__
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a theory, he hates golfers cause there is lot of swearing involved usually
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ol
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:51] herman Bergson: So....let's get ready for the next lecture on Tuesday
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what time is it Gemma?
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ?
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): at your place
[13:51] herman Bergson: -6 hours Beertje
[13:52] herman Bergson: The beautiful state of Connecticut :-))
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:52] herman Bergson: Been there ^_^
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a connected place i guess
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dont have so much check on the different states what is in each one
[13:53] herman Bergson: Forests
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh is real time 4:53
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): other then Texas is still wild west and everyone shoots like maniacs like its a human right to blast guns everywhere
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least many there seem to think so
[13:54] herman Bergson: Let's not go there Bejiita....oh my
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then of course oil and legendary Texas instruments
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Better go to Giethoorn Bejiita
[13:55] herman Bergson: lol indeed Beertje
[13:55] herman Bergson: Disappear into the MIST Bejiita :-))
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i heard recently a story from texas a maniac shooting his gun in his garden and the neighbours complaied that baby could not sleep, he just "ITS MY GARDEN I DO WHAT I WANT" Then he walked inside their house and shot them all to death
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): awful story
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sorrry to say more states than just Texas
[13:56] herman Bergson: If there are no questions left...we might end our discussion of today....
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well true
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope to be here Tuesday
[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-)
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa cu then Gemma
[13:56] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs ㋡
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman and class
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): enjoy your burger
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ㋡
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have a meeting
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye
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