Tuesday, February 24, 2015

566: Belief and proof

All those, who preached some religion, knew , that the god they referred to was there. That is, if you believed it, 
because although some claimed they had seen their god, the other ten or twenty million people hadn’t. And that was, of course, a bit peculiar.
If you have only a little understanding of statistics and how nature works, it can’t be otherwise than that if one person sees god at least another 10.000 must too in a population of millions.
It is like my ideas about what I’d like to script in LSL, so that it will happen in Second Life. 
I have learnt through the years, that when I have some idea, someone else had it already too and wrote a nice script. So, look first in Open Source material….
But with the phenomenon god it seems to be a bit different. He isn’t that easy to catch. And of course that worried a lot of preachers, that demanded for our belief.
And this naturally made atheists drool, because their “opponents” had to come up with a PROOF of the existence of the god they claimed to serve.
I am not sure, but it might be so, that such a discussion about proof, is a typical feature of our culture and this monotheistic christianity.
Already in the Middle Ages they spend a lot of intellectual energy on this issue. Of course we’ll look into that later. Fascinating enterprise…
But there comes this thought to my mind. Only Western philosophy moved from all kinds of metaphysics and theology to science: principles, laws of physics based on evidence and so on.
Before we took that step to science, it already was probably in our genes to demand for proof, for evidence.  
And because the Middle Ages were dominated by theology, the Western mind applied its questioning to the main issue of theology: does god exist?
We, and here I mean Western culture, seem to have developed a natural drive for evidence….We want to see proof. 
The moment I wrote what I just said, I really had to smile, because it came to my mind that this attitude is actually described by the Bible itself.
Look at the picture here. Caravaggio painted it in 1602 - 1603. In real it is 107 × 146 cm. I find it beautiful and it tells us an interesting thing about religion involved here.
The image is related to John 20, verse 27. 
“26 A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." 
27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe." 
28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 
29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe."
Let’s ignore for the moment, that the Jesus person can enter a room, which has a locked door. What is more fascinating is what is said about our demand for real empirical proof.
We are told here that “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.” It looks like, that the writer here tries to discourage our drive for basing our conclusions on empirical evidence.
Well, we are allowed to demand it, but it is not the higher good. That is to believe without empirical proof. 
When put into historical perspective the intellectual development of homo sapiens overruled this advise and developed science.
So, I would say that this scientific attitude is in our genes and thus led to attempts to PROVE the existence of a god.
Later on we’ll look into this subject, because the atheist finds it just rubbish and I want to hear their arguments. 
In our time the old attempts to proof the existence of a god are presumably nice intellectual puzzles of argumentation and logic.
You could say that the attitude of Thomas towards reality has won eventually and that the idea of Intelligent Design (ID) is a contemporary attempt to proof the existence of a god.
You won’t believe it, but in my research I did not only read about arguments that try to proof the existence of a god.
I was amazed to discover, that people even put intellectual energy in developing an anti existence of god proof, although  its existence not yet has been proved.
And just when I am writing this I switch to a Twitter page….No idea how Twitter works, but the entry is called “Godsbewijzen @godsbewijzen” (Proof of god)
I am really flabbergasted what I read there. Atheism = immorality, atheism is sickening, atheism = no meaning of life, the absurdity of life without God.
To quote Spock, while raising my left eyebrow: FASCINATING.
I found this quote. You have to hear this just to give you a feeling about what we are discussing here:
"If atheism is true, it is far from being good news. Learning that we're alone in the universe, that no one hears or answers our prayers, 
that humanity is entirely the product of random events, that we have no more intrinsic dignity than non-human and even non-animate clumps of matter, 
that we face certain annihilation in death, that our sufferings are ultimately pointless, that our lives and loves do not at all matter in a larger sense, 
that those who commit horrific evils and elude human punishment get away with their crimes scot free — all of this (and much more) is utterly tragic."
The author of these words is some Damon Linker, who you can find here: http://theweek.com/authors/damon-linker 
No idea who this fellow is, but the way he shaves and models his beard is quite interesting to see :-))
Thank you all again for your attention…the floor is yours.. ^_^

The Discussion

Corona Anatine: re jesus a wound is only proof that the the person survived an injury somehow -its not proof of 'god' and that is something tangible -given god is supposedly 'intangible' what sort of proof could be obtained?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i love Carravagio
Max Chatnoir: I think the difficulty of constructing either proofs or disproofs of God is that first you have to makes some assumptions about what God is or is not.
herman Bergson: Yes me too Gemma....the way he experiments with light!
Corona Anatine: agreed max
Bejiita Imako: yes
herman Bergson: Oh yes Max....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): think the best person to read to see someone who PROVES the existance of god in his writing is Thomas Aquinas
Bejiita Imako: What is really a god?
herman Bergson: we still ahve along way togo here :-))
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he is the one most quoted in religious studies
herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...Aquino is a number one indeed
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes if one believes it all makes sense
herman Bergson: We'll discuss his ideas here definitely !
Bejiita Imako: Its like chasing after the Higgs boson, you first need to know WHAT you are looking for. That we find in Higgs case in the math of the standard model. With god we have nothing to go on from start however
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): if one does not is it just more of the usual
Bejiita Imako: so will be much harder
Bejiita Imako: no starting point for the search
herman Bergson: But we are not here to believe things...but to know things
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Bejiita Imako: yes
Max Chatnoir: It seems like asking for belief without any evidence seems to be like setting up a scam.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is what belief does tho
CB Axel: We have a better chance of proving Big Foot exists because we know what we're looking for.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): faith
Corona Anatine: well the starting point would be the idea that 'god' is sentient
Bejiita Imako: yes,
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): people with faith are sure
Areyn Laurasia: And what would be evidence? Something you can see? Touch? Feel?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Sure in their beliefs
Bejiita Imako: well we have to detect it someway and be able to analyze what it is
Corona Anatine: the criteria are surely for theists to list
herman Bergson: AA point Corona....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not if you just believe
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :_)
herman Bergson: And Gemma you make a point too..
Bejiita Imako: ah
herman Bergson: we not yet discussed the difference between faith and belief..
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well
Corona Anatine: a subtle one perhaps herman
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
herman Bergson: yes it is Corona...
herman Bergson: but it really needs its own lecture...
herman Bergson: We have to organize our ideas about the difference first
Corona Anatine: okiies
herman Bergson: But what amused me most today was the idea about Thomas and his attitude towards reality....
Corona Anatine: i dod recall reading somewhere that if  god appeared to one person and not others than faith without proof loses any point or virtue
herman Bergson: Interesting point is that only John tells that story....the other three do not mention it
Ciska Riverstone: why is that herman?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he is always called doubting Thomas
herman Bergson: Well Ciska,...only Mark tells the story of Xmas for instance...
herman Bergson: so I dont know...:-)
Corona Anatine: the question with tom has to be -exactly what was he doubting
herman Bergson: just four different writers...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): actually he doubted a lot of things that happened with Jesus
herman Bergson: He doubted that jesus was alive again, Corona...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is why he was invited to put his finger in the wou8nd
herman Bergson: returned from death
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): as proof
Corona Anatine: [four approved writers ignoring the gnostic texts]-
herman Bergson: creepy story btw....:-)
Corona Anatine: ok but if the story is true then surely that jc was alive was clear
Corona Anatine: why the extra need of the wound probing
herman Bergson: There were a lot of more gospels around...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think it was just a joke type thing to thomas
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Areyn Laurasia: special effects...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): to be honest
herman Bergson: but in 345 or so in Nicea they decided that the four we have now were the right ones
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right
Corona Anatine: right
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): some of the others are most interesting
CB Axel: More interesting, even
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
herman Bergson: Indeed Gemma :-))
Corona Anatine: why stop at four - why not reduce it to just one definitive text
Areyn Laurasia: which ones would you recommend reading?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i cant name them
herman Bergson: So it all has an arbitrary character....these gospels...
herman Bergson: four completely different stories
Max Chatnoir: Thomas is one of them, isn't it?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well as usual in the catholic church a bunch of old men sat down and decided
Max Chatnoir: Another gospel?
herman Bergson: Yes it is max
Corona Anatine: as a irecall tghey chose the ones that were most popular at congregations
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): as they still do
herman Bergson: I dont mind Corona..:-)
herman Bergson: Issue is that we have Intelligent Design today and the attempts to proof the existence of a god through the ages :-)
herman Bergson: We look at atheism here....
herman Bergson: so we look at its targets :-)
Max Chatnoir: The ID people sometimes claim that they are not saying that God was the designer.
Max Chatnoir: Just that there WAS a designer.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): every lecture is a tree and it has branches that draw out out and out
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and we stray from the topic
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): always have
Corona Anatine: what other forms could a universe designer take Max?
herman Bergson: Yes gemma..Philosophical SLife is an art :-))
Bejiita Imako:
Bejiita Imako: ehehe
Max Chatnoir: Oh, they don't want to go there.  :-)
Bejiita Imako: it sure is
herman Bergson: Well...let me make a point here...to clarify my position in this project...
Areyn Laurasia: why does the intelligent design have to have a form at all?
herman Bergson: A sec Areyn..:-)
Corona Anatine: god knows
Areyn Laurasia: ok
herman Bergson: I regard religion to be a cultural phenomenon equivalent to art and music....
herman Bergson: it is there....
herman Bergson: period...we as human beings produce it
Corona Anatine: totally agree
Bejiita Imako: thats true
herman Bergson: And from this perspective I try to analyse atheism
Bejiita Imako: god is just in some peoples minds, don’t really exist
Bejiita Imako: only physics and chemistry do
herman Bergson: Bejiita....you may say that but you are ahead of us here then :-))
Max Chatnoir: That is a nice point.  I talked to a minister once who was inviting me to attend his church, and I said that I had to admit that I went to church mostly for the music.  He suggested that maybe I went to music for the religion.  I thought it was a good point.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is a good perspective ... as in any other art or music
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah
Bejiita Imako:
Corona Anatine: as another set of beliefs about the universe then herman?
Max Chatnoir: Well, maybe the idea of God is a road to trying to take a perspective on things outside of ourselves.
herman Bergson: I do not agree Max....
herman Bergson: He was trying to rub religion on you...if that is the right way to say it
Corona Anatine: that only has validity if 'god' is true max
herman Bergson: It is like the Jehovas do when you say..No God does not exist...
herman Bergson: then they reply...
Corona Anatine: othersie it is a false perspective
herman Bergson: AHHHH!!!! So you know about god?!
Max Chatnoir: Well, I gave it some serious thought.
herman Bergson: Bach ahs composed the most beautiful religious music...I LOVE tolisten to it.....for the music...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
herman Bergson: That his employer was the church I don't mind...beauty is beauty
Max Chatnoir: It can certainly be a profound experience.
Bejiita Imako: thats true for sure
herman Bergson: Oh yes MAx.....very!
herman Bergson: But it is an aesthetic experience...not a religious one for me
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and Michaelangelo
Corona Anatine: what makes bach religious music - because it was written for the church , the lyrics -as music on its own has no allegiance unless assigned one
Bejiita Imako: Bach is awesome
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): who spent most of his time employed by the church
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and fighting with popes
herman Bergson: and making children in good religious tradition, Gemma :-)))
herman Bergson: how many were it...14?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): dont recall
Corona Anatine: i doupt bacjh did either
herman Bergson: But yet a sad part of his life because some died so young.....
Max Chatnoir: It's funny.  I wasn't raised Catholic, but I've sung a lot of settings of the Mass and other religious texts, like the Te Deum, and so I know most of those texts in Latin!
herman Bergson: Yes Max....
Max Chatnoir: Music has certainly contributed to my religious education.  :-)
herman Bergson: I had a teacher, teaching French at high school...
Corona Anatine: even so they are part of religion not part of god
Max Chatnoir: What a nice distinction, Corona!
Corona Anatine: there is a movment to have atheist hymns and choirs etc
herman Bergson: when there was some reference to a bilical name and someone didnt know who Adam or Eve were she was upset...
herman Bergson: She always said
herman Bergson: You dont need to be religious...but you need to know your culture
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ahha
Max Chatnoir: Well, the biblical stories are an important part of our cultural background.
herman Bergson: Yes,,,they are....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Max Chatnoir: So I agree that we should understand those references.
Bejiita Imako: that i can agree with
herman Bergson: I agree Max...
Corona Anatine: agreed
herman Bergson: But atheism is a totally different story :-)
Max Chatnoir: I don't want to ban the Bible, just not use it for a science textbook.
Corona Anatine: how important is a moot point but they have some
CB Axel: Right, Max.
Max Chatnoir: Well, about like the Greek myths.
Max Chatnoir: Pandora's Box, Prometheus, etc.
herman Bergson: Yes...or the Gilgamesh or any ancient text...
Bejiita Imako: indeed
herman Bergson: nice literature...
Corona Anatine: well a lot of atheism comes from those who progress past religion - without any unifying common ground
CB Axel: Beowulf
Bejiita Imako: those should not be used instead of science
Max Chatnoir: Yes!
herman Bergson: What I am discovering is that atheism is a christian hobby...:-)
herman Bergson: I mean....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Corona Anatine: a belief in 'god' will bring together those with a similar veiw of what religion should be - but atheism is not like that
herman Bergson: The atheists never debate Zeus or Jupiter or Donar....only this christian god
Corona Anatine: as its something that is not part of a persons identity as such
Max Chatnoir: Well, and the other big monotheistic religions.
Ciska Riverstone: mayby christianity is an atheist hobby then
herman Bergson: ahh...I forgot to mention Allah...
Max Chatnoir: So believe in God has NOT brought people together.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): who is actually the same
Max Chatnoir: They just fight about which concept is the right one.
herman Bergson: Looks like it Ciska :-))
Corona Anatine: only becsue those other gods are not mainstream beliefs and so are not seen as needing disprove
Bejiita Imako: indeed max
Ciska Riverstone: not so much the other way round ;)
Max Chatnoir: Yes, there aren't any Zoroastrian terrorists.
herman Bergson: No...they fight about power in our society, Max....
CB Axel: 1)Zeus, etc were already made unimportant by monotheism and 2) those ancient gods are not being shoved down our throats.
Max Chatnoir: Are there?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh but there were
Corona Anatine: or seeking to undermine science withh ID
herman Bergson: Religion is about power..political power...
Areyn Laurasia: ah.. finally something I agree with :)
Bejiita Imako: very much.
Max Chatnoir: I think so, too.
herman Bergson: hurraa for Areyn :-))
Bejiita Imako: not so much bringing people together as t meaningless kill each other for whos god is right
Max Chatnoir: Would Christianity have taken such a hold if it hadn't been the state religion of Rome?
Bejiita Imako: like shia and sunni do all time
Bejiita Imako: blowing each other up
Max Chatnoir: And spread to the rest of the Empire?
Bejiita Imako: totally nuts if u ask me
herman Bergson: Indeed MAx....religion is politics...
Bejiita Imako: and that is a bad thing
Bejiita Imako: really bad
Corona Anatine: not feeling fully well - logging out - some minor headcold or somehting cya
herman Bergson: Well not the topic of today...but yet :-))
Bejiita Imako: ooow
Max Chatnoir: Hope you feel better, Corona.
Bejiita Imako: bye corona
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): take it easy
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye   
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tace care Corona
Bejiita Imako: ouch. My best rl friend didn’t feel really good today either
Bejiita Imako: headache all day he said before
herman Bergson: I hope it is not due to my blasphemic lectures Bejiita :-))
Max Chatnoir: I have to admit that I thought it was pretty scary that George Bush thought that God wanted him to be President.
Bejiita Imako: hehe that i don’t think
Bejiita Imako: you do a good job Herman
Bejiita Imako:
herman Bergson: That would scare me too MAx...oh my...
CB Axel: More afraid that GW thought that or that God wanted him to be pres/
CB Axel: ?
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he realy believed that ?
Bejiita Imako: eeeeh ok
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Max Chatnoir: Well, he said it; presumably he believed it.  I don't think he was joking.
herman Bergson: The first politician in the Netherlands who dares to say that is OUT...
CB Axel: I'm not sure if I'm more afraid of a president that thinks that or a god what wants that
herman Bergson: a total loss
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Romney i think also believes so eeven tho he is not going to run
Areyn Laurasia: eyes the apparition next to herman..
herman Bergson: hmmm,,I didnt htink I Missed your kisses SIr
Bejiita Imako: agree herman
CB Axel: So Romney is defying the will of God?
GGemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): maybe
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): being realistic
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he ran twice
herman Bergson: The way the US population deals with religion and god is so totally different from Europe
Max Chatnoir: How so, Herman?
Bejiita Imako: well even the money have "in god we trust" on them
Bejiita Imako: all is about god there
herman Bergson: Hmmm...how can I put it....
Bejiita Imako: they are as religios as the ones in middle east, only different religions
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is true
Max Chatnoir: That's true.  And somebody got it into the Pledge of Allegiance.
Max Chatnoir: I love it that French money has authors and philosophers on it!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the Vatican has a terrible time with Americans
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we are tooo free
Bejiita Imako: hehe
herman Bergson: Thank you Bejiita...you saved me some typing
Bejiita Imako:
CB Axel: "In God We Trust" and "Under God" didn't get added until the 20th century, I believe.
Max Chatnoir: You don't have to worry about offending me.  I just work here.  :-)
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you must remember that the beginning of America was mostly baseed on those escaping from prejudice in England
herman Bergson: In the US it is accepted that a President says..So help me God Allmighty...of rinstance...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Bejiita Imako: yes
Max Chatnoir: Under God was put in during my lifetime.
Bejiita Imako: they say prayers to everything
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not to
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for
Max Chatnoir: I'm not sure I saw enough money to be sure of the other!
herman Bergson: though religion and State are two different things since 1789
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): correct
Bejiita Imako: ah¨ok
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is it in the constitution
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): separation of church and state
Max Chatnoir: Isn't the pyramid thing a masonic symbol?  That's on the money.
herman Bergson: Bu the founding Fathers didnt put it there
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): tho some try to insist that it is a religious country
herman Bergson: Yes it is Max
herman Bergson: Made me wonder ....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): many of the writers of the constitution were masons
Bejiita Imako: ok
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i forget the number
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but some of the important ones were
herman Bergson: It shows...
herman Bergson: But we are pleasantly off topic now....:-)
Max Chatnoir: Wikipedia says 1873 for God on the money.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): time to go
Ciska Riverstone: The USA might get into troubles if people stop believing as their state help systems won't be able to do all the work done by religious volunteers right now.
herman Bergson: so time to end our disbates...
CB Axel: That early, Max? OK.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
Max Chatnoir: Not quite during my lifetime.  :-)
Bejiita Imako: interesting as always
Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman - thanx all
Bejiita Imako:
herman Bergson: So...thank youall again....for your participation...:-)
Max Chatnoir: Yes, these discussions are always so interesting!
Bejiita Imako: very
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): gets one to think
Bejiita Imako:
herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...
CB Axel: Thank you, herman
Max Chatnoir: I'm so happy Chantal told me about them.
Bejiita Imako: true
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): good
Areyn Laurasia: Thanks... I don't know which is scarier.. whether god exists or not.. or that there are people who believe...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye   
Max Chatnoir: What is the topic for next time?
herman Bergson: I bet for the last option Areyn...
herman Bergson: I'll start with Intelligent design Max..and then like to look into history....th eontological argument eand the like..:-)
Areyn Laurasia: Freemasons aren't Christians.. are they?
bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman & class! it was very interesting! clapclap
Max Chatnoir: Oh, good, that will be fun!
herman Bergson: I don't know Areyn....
CB Axel: That will be fun.
herman Bergson: But I think they were murdered by christians in those days
Bejiita Imako: cu soon all
Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman.  I'll see you all Tuesday.
CB Axel admits to almost complete ignorance re: freemasonry.
Bejiita Imako: bye
herman Bergson: as heretics or something like that
Bejiita Imako:
bergfrau Apfelbaum: see ou next week :-) byebye´s
Max Chatnoir: My dad was a Mason, but very strict about keeping it all secret!  :-)
CB Axel: Bye, bye, everyone. See you Tuesday.
CB Axel: God willing
CB Axel: ?
herman Bergson: lol
herman Bergson: I will CB
CB Axel: !
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that was fast reading this evening:))....
Max Chatnoir: And my maternal grandfather was in the Knights Templar!
Max Chatnoir: I only know because we have his sword.  :-)
herman Bergson: Cool , Max
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight and thank you Herman
Areyn Laurasia: nice :)
herman Bergson: By eBeertje x
Areyn Laurasia: nite nite
herman Bergson: Bye Areyn :-))
Max Chatnoir: Good night.
Max Chatnoir: OK, back to the open door.  See you all next week.  :-)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): interesting class..i never learned anything about religion..my youth was all about surviving
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): (I made it)
Max Chatnoir: And we're glad you did, little bear.  :-)
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):
herman Bergson: Yes indeed....
herman Bergson: otherwise your beauty had gone lost...
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it almost was lost..yes
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but i'm still alive
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):
herman Bergson: Indeed you are..!
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i just listen to your lectures and the discussion..i don't know anything about this subject
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but it's very interesting
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):
herman Bergson: Well...religion is a huge influence in our society....
herman Bergson: so at least you have some understanding of it....as myFrench teacher demanded
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):

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