Thursday, February 26, 2015

568: The proof of the existence of god

Since the early days of homo sapiens we find examples of culture. The Oxford Dictionaries define the concept like this:
“The arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively” and
“The ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society”
Take music. All humans create it. We have serious debates about the concept of “beauty” 
and what makes something a work of Art. The artists are sometimes adored as idols.
This is how our brain works, but you could ask the question “Why do we do that?” I have only one explanation: our brain is a stimuli addict.
When you deprive the brain and central nervous system of stimuli, we go crazy. If you offer constantly the same stimuli we get bored and eventually crazy again.
This might be an explanation why the organism, called homo sapiens, creates culture. And one of his creations is religion.
However, the arts and religion are not treated in the same way. We sometimes have the feeling that an artist seems to be in touch with a transcendental something called Beauty, which he brings back to earth level.
The priest and imams appear to have a similar role in the cultural phenomenon, called religion. They bring god to earth level.
Here the philosophical issues start. We love to talk about beauty, but in fact, when we see a beautiful painting,
what we say is that beauty is a property of this painting and we try to define this property. But in case of religion we get a completely different debate.
Religion claims the existence of something, it calls god. Like we are easily inclined to imagine that it is Beauty, that touches the painting or the music,
likewise we seem to be inclined to believe that we are “touched”, “guided” by this god. When you look at the figures behind me, they show that a lot of people believe this.
Does beauty exist? Oh yes! Of course we may seriously disagree whether compositions of Stockhausen are beautiful or not, but we we all believe it exists.
Does god exist? I am sorry, the believers say, that is not debatable. He (She/It) exists. I can listen to music and experience beauty. It just happens.
But what should I do to have a similar experience regarding this god idea. I guess one answer would be…just look at the beauty of nature. Someone  MUST have created it.
And here we enter the fist battle zone: necessity. It is commonly accepted that there are two sorts of existent entities: those that exist but could have failed to exist, 
and those that could not have failed to exist. Entities of the first sort are contingent beings; entities of the second sort are necessary beings.
There are various entities which, if they exist, would be candidates for necessary beings: God, propositions, relations, properties, states of affairs, possible worlds, and numbers, among others. 
Note that the first entity in this list is a concrete entity, while the rest are abstract entities.
Many interesting philosophical questions arise when one inquires about necessary beings: What makes it the case that they exist necessarily? Is there a grounding for their necessary existence? 
To say that this god is just a coincidence…no way! It would make the whole universe just a coincidence and it seems that this observation destroys the meaning of life.
So he has to be necessary and without a beginning or end. Don’t ask me what this means. It is our brain that invents these ideas.
Not mine, but other people’s brains and they are even willing to murder for it…….
Thank you for your attention…the floor is yours..^_^

The Discussion

Max Chatnoir: So why is God concrete and not abstract?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no one says that
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i don’t think
Bejiita Imako: because he is describes as a being of some sort i guess
herman Bergson: no no....god can not be abstract like a number is abstract
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but not concrete
Bejiita Imako: or a property
herman Bergson: if that were so he would be only a product of our brain
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Mmmm a deity can be abstract, or a collection of ideas that form a religion
herman Bergson: That idea of god as a property is interesting Bejiita....
Loo Zeta-Ah  mumbles something about Spinoza
Max Chatnoir: or contingent?
herman Bergson: Spinoza thought about it in that way
Bejiita Imako: hmm might be
Bejiita Imako: ok
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): lol
herman Bergson: you are right Loo :-))
Barby Seda: the existence of god is based on faith and believe
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Did we say Spinoza simultaneously?
Bejiita Imako: interesting concept indeed
herman Bergson: But what does this property add to reality....
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Sorry  have him up to the ear balls, my son is writing him for a thesis
herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll discuss 'existence'
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): spinoza??
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): yep
Bejiita Imako: ok
herman Bergson: and the existence a property...
Max Chatnoir: That will be interesting, especially here!
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): mmm metaphysical or virtual or projected identity of self?
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): the question is, what is existence?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it always was
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ;-)
herman Bergson: indeed Daruma....
Max Chatnoir: To be or not to be, that is the question.
herman Bergson: what do I say more in the tomato is red.....and
herman Bergson: the tomato is red and exists
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Not after it is eaten
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there are other colors of tomatoes
herman Bergson: Teh tomato willl still be red Loo
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): It then becomes us
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): where does it exist? when I read also science magacines I get totally confused about where I am - what I am - and why I am.
Bejiita Imako: the tomato is concrete and an object, red is abstract and a property that is linked to the concrete tomato
Bejiita Imako: to make it look red
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): perhaps I am a tomato...
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Yuck very indigestable concrete tomatoes
Bejiita Imako: taste is another property
Max Chatnoir: If you take away all of the properties, don't you take a way the tomato?
Bejiita Imako: hahaha concrete as in an object
Bejiita Imako: not building material
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): ◕‿÷
Bejiita Imako:
herman Bergson: The point is that 'red' IS a property of the tomato....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we are ripping at the next topic
herman Bergson: but what is 'exist'?
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): so sorry
Bejiita Imako: but without the tomato the property would not exixt
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ja herman. Things can exist in many ways
herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita
Max Chatnoir: Ah, so the redness is contingent on the tomato.
Bejiita Imako: ah
Max Chatnoir: at least the tomato's redness.
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): Virtual, physical, only in our minds....
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): It was once green
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): soem are yellow too
Bejiita Imako: yes
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): yep
Bejiita Imako: and both ate still tomatoes
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does god have a color?
Bejiita Imako: are
bergfrau Apfelbaum: i think that one of God, or something else, believe because it helps if we have troubles.... it can help a glass of wine... or good sex, or any god in our head
bergfrau Apfelbaum: i think did one of God, or something else, believe: because it helps if we have troubles .... it can help a glass of wine ... or good sex, or any god in our head
bergfrau Apfelbaum:  *¨¨**''* Cheers *''**¨¨*
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): spirit don’t usually have color
Barby Seda: the tomato derives from seeds
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): god must have any colour cos he is a believe of nearly anyone in the world.
herman Bergson: That is the big problem Beertje...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no color
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Mmm spirit can be coloured
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): And I mean in this way god as a word for any believe
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah so there is belief in spirits
herman Bergson: Is it an object that can have properties...
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): <---- alternative="" going="" here="" p="">
Bejiita Imako: yes but the spirit itself is always colorless
Bejiita Imako: the ethanol itself
herman Bergson: the theologians believe so....
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ok bejita
Bejiita Imako: the color come from other substances mixed with it
herman Bergson: he is benevolent, omnipotent eternal and so on...
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Reflection of something on it?
Barby Seda: the colors and other attributes derive from the seeds
herman Bergson: only existing entities can have properties
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Or 'She'
Bejiita Imako: true
herman Bergson: Yes Loo....another problem..HE She or It
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): why would sex be involved
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but when he or she has a color then god must exist
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): at all
herman Bergson: but what sense does it make for a god in the Judaic tradition to be a he or a she...?
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Exactly... God 'IS'
herman Bergson: If he is a he...can he have a wife too?
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): no sexual identity
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe he has:)))
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Well is there sex in heaven?
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i hope so Loo:))))
herman Bergson: would be heavenly sex :-))
Bejiita Imako: indeed
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): overpopulation could be a problem in eternity
Bejiita Imako: good sex is nice thats true
herman Bergson: But I don’t need god for that Bejiita ^_^
herman Bergson: only a goddess :-)))
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): lol
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):
Bejiita Imako: no but i guess its all about getting stimuli of some sort weather ses or believe in god even they are totally different
Bejiita Imako: the brain chases stimuli
herman Bergson: To get back to the issue here....
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Unless you are a Buddhist and you seek nothingness
herman Bergson: I really do not understand why people conclude that god necessarily has to exist...
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): me neither
bergfrau Apfelbaum: -II-
herman Bergson: That is whatI love about is totally uninterested in any god at all
Bejiita Imako: its mind boggling indeed especially for me who don’t believe in any god
Bejiita Imako: want some proof first
Bejiita Imako: before i believe
herman Bergson: yes Bejiita....I understand
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): a long story, but the christians needed something to keep the people small.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and those who do believe cannot imagine why those who dont .. dont
Bejiita Imako: true
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): I asked God for proof once...... ermm that is another story some other time
Bejiita Imako: heheh
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): but thats another< story
herman Bergson: that is the point Gemma...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): So in asking God for proof, I was acknowledging existence
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): looks at bangladesh in amazement
Bejiita Imako: hmm indeed
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): less than 1% don t believe
Bejiita Imako: almost all believe in god
herman Bergson: But I still do not understand where this idea of a supernatural being comes from...unless it is a by product of our mental development since childhood
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Otherwise I would be talking to .....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): I think it has to do with control
Bejiita Imako: thats the only logical thing, people who have not stopped believing in santa claus already somewhat
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): That we cannot control we put down to another being in control
herman Bergson: oh yes Loo....the god idea has been used to control whole nations....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): stil is
herman Bergson: look at IS!
Bejiita Imako: nowadays seems mostly a means to control and opress people
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think we need someone to blame for disasters
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and to blame god is easy
Bejiita Imako: religion = power = bad thing
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta) nods
Bejiita Imako: bad combination
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Not always it is how it is managed
Barby Seda: However, look at Deistic beliefs
herman Bergson: No Beeertje.....for that is really the big question....
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Islam = peace
herman Bergson: Take an earthquake...
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Christian philosophy is peace
herman Bergson: if god did that he is the biggest asshole ever
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): yep
herman Bergson: we have the problem of evil in this world....
Bejiita Imako: religion might be a good thing as start bt then the big leaders manipulate it just to gain control
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): take IS..who is the god that say shop the heads off?
Bejiita Imako: brainwashing
Bejiita Imako: for evil purposes
Bejiita Imako: thats whats happening now with is
Bejiita Imako: ans boko haram
Bejiita Imako: and
Barby Seda: Christians also killed people
herman Bergson: remark...a bit off topic....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is a huge distortion of the writings in the Koran
Bejiita Imako: true, but that was in the mid ages, but these guys STILL live in the mid ages even its 2015
Max Chatnoir: Sorry, I had to answer the door!
Bejiita Imako: sort of
herman Bergson: Why do we NEVER hear or read in the news who is supplying this IS movement....????
Max Chatnoir: and then chase the dog.  Reading the chat...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): exactly because they are NOT educated
Bejiita Imako: true
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Ermmm they are often
Bejiita Imako: ok
Bejiita Imako: hmm
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): The person whom lived where i was born in Leeds and blew up the underground was a teacher
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): 07/07
herman Bergson: there are two Qurans....
Bejiita Imako: ee ok
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): They recruit disaffected individuals frustrated with their lot
Max Chatnoir: REally, two?
Barby Seda: just like there are 2 Christian Bibles
Bejiita Imako: ah
Max Chatnoir: Two bibles or two translations?
herman Bergson: one written in the period 612 -622....which is like christian evangelium...and one written in the period 622 -632
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or romantic enough to want to be in in a movement
herman Bergson: which is writtten by the Warrior Mohammed
Barby Seda: one who people choose to read, and the other which is ignored
Bejiita Imako: aaa now i get what u mean
Bejiita Imako: by 2 bibles, old and new testament
herman Bergson: so one half is human and mild...the second half is barbaric like IS
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): and like the dead sea scrolls called gnostic texts
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and the other gospels also
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not included in the bible
Bejiita Imako: aa
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): I have been called a cyber gnostic by a well known theologian.... bring it on!!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Bejiita Imako: hhaahaha
Bejiita Imako:
herman Bergson: wow...cyber gnostic....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): interesting
herman Bergson: what in the world might that be? :-)
Bejiita Imako: no ides
Bejiita Imako: hehe
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Well it was NT Wright at a digital symposium in Durham Uni
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): he is stuck on gnosticism
Bejiita Imako: is that like Necronomicon?
Max Chatnoir: So which one is more commonly used?  Or were they combined?
Bejiita Imako: Chtullu and similar
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): and well thinks because I meet with people on line.. in preference ot local church
herman Bergson: I wonder what I should call myself....
herman Bergson: I see religion as a cultural product like music and art....
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): The interaction was shared on youtube, if anybody interested I will share the link
Bejiita Imako: ok
herman Bergson: you mean your birth as cyber gnostic Loo? :-)
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): Religion is a good tool to keep people under control.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): of course so is the military
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): It contains fear, hopes and the believe of healing
herman Bergson: Yes it is, Daruma...but that applies to any ideology...communism was too
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): true
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): religion makes no different^^^
Ciska Riverstone: economic systems as well
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): sorry
Barby Seda: or applied to capitalism
herman Bergson: VERY TRUE, Ciska!
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): its not more holy than other tools
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Bejiita Imako: i guess so
Ciska Riverstone: not less either ;)
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): u must know the target group
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): thats all
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): others work for money
herman Bergson: well...I think....enough to think about for two days again :-))
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): other work for "holiness"
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): but in the end its money
herman Bergson: SO....thank you all again for your participation :-))
Bejiita Imako:
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): dank je well herman
herman Bergson whispers: Time to cool down our brains agian :-)
Bejiita Imako: nice Herman
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman, enough to think about again:)
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Thanks
Bejiita Imako: hehe indeed
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): / me claps
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): as usual
herman Bergson: Class dismissed .....^_^
Bejiita Imako: cu thursday

Bejiita Imako:

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