In our process of looking atheism we have reached an interesting stage: we have found clear evidence
that the developing mind between 2 and 7 years contains all presets necessary to religious thinking.
Educationally it is also the period during which many of us have learnt that going to church on Sunday is part of life and the rest.
In that period we learn to believe in ghosts and in the dualist idea, that we are a body and a mind and that there can be other minds without a body.
The third element, I did not yet mention, is the belief of a child, that everything has a purpose. It is that developmental phase where a child begins to ask “Why is this…” and “Why is that…”
The trick with my son was always to trap him in a circular argument. “Dad, why are bananas bend?”. “That is so you can bend them right again, son”.
“Why should I bend the bananas right, dad?” “Because they are bend, son” and thus I had a quiet afternoon again.
That is how we grow up…. thinking that everything has a purpose, a reason of being or an intention.
This morning I was reading an interview with some important astronomer. It was about the Big Bang. He said, that where ever we look into space
galaxies, stars and so on are moving away from us, which means that the universe is expanding. And then comes that logic….
Because everything is moving away from us, there HAS to have been a moment when that movement started. In other words, we have to assume, that there was a Big Bang.
It is a nice model, but regarding questions like: Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know.
Yet we have this innate need to find a reason for everything. For the 2 to 7 year old children, that is no problem at all.
Everything is there for a reason. Why are there mountains. Simple, they are there to climb. Why are there leaves on the trees. To get shadow in summer….
In other words, nothing is just there. Behind its existence there has to be an intention, a design. And where there is a design, there has to be some designer, of course.
For children this idea of a design of reality is an almost natural belief. And the next step, to learn to believe in a Designer isn’t that difficult then.
You can take this proces one step further. When you believe in dualism and add to that the belief in a Designer,
the next step could be a belief in the possibility to get to know this designer or even more…to get in touch with this designer.
As you see, our brain looks almost predisposed to belief in such a way. But I immediately run into trouble already. This idea of a designer…..
If you look at the complexity from micro- to macro-cosmos, I’d say that this can only be done by a team of designers.
Where does that logic come from, that you only have one designer? And then this designer him or herself.
We run into the same questions as with the Big Bang theory: Where did he come from? We don't know. Why did he appear? We don't know. Why do we always talk of a “HE” and not a “SHE”, “IT” perhaps?
The problem we face here is the problem of evidence. The older we get the more realistic and demanding we become regarding the empirical quality of evidence.
The subject we have run into here is called creationism and in other contexts named Intelligent Design.
In the US there is a lot of money behind this idea. If you want Richard Dawkins on Red Alert!, then tell him that you as a scientist are funded by the Templeton Foundation of John Templeton.
Declaring that relatively little is known about the divine through scripture and present-day theology, he predicted that "scientific revelations may be a gold mine for revitalizing religion in the 21st century."
To his mind, "All of nature reveals something of the creator. And god is revealing himself more and more to human inquiry,
not always through prophetic visions or scriptures but through the astonishingly productive research of modern scientists."
Isn’t that something! We have to take a closer look at Intelligent Design and creationism and analyse the evidence, that is brought up to support such ideas.
Thank you for your attention…the floor is yours…^_^
CB Axel: Having a philosopher for a father must be hell. :D
Roger Amdahl: Sorry Herman, I totally disagree on the part there is a reason for everything. The second part I disagree is the designer theory, what a bad designer she must be ! Please give me some proof of a designer ?
CB Axel thinks of Herman's son trying to unbend a banana.
Corona Anatine notes that Herman’s son was traumatised by having a smartarse dad
herman Bergson smiles
herman Bergson: Let me first make one thing clear...
Max Chatnoir: Once a woman who lived in my neighborhood said to me. "Isn't it wonderful that shade appears only when the sun is out and you need shade."
Corona Anatine: intelligent design -hmm the intelligent has to be that of the proponents of the 'theory'
CB Axel: I don't think that there is necessarily a reason for something, but everything must come from something.
Roger Amdahl: Why not tell your sun light makes things grow slower .. that is why the sun side of the banana is shorter, hence it is bend .. then he learned something
herman Bergson: I do not express always my perosnal opinion ...just report what is going on....
Max Chatnoir: That would look like divine providence if you didn't know about shadows.
Bejiita Imako: ㋡
Corona Anatine: no Roger -becuase in the banana bunches the inner side i faces inwards
herman Bergson: In the first place...that reason for everything....
Corona Anatine: so is in b dark
Roger Amdahl: pfff,,, is that what your dad told you Corona ??
herman Bergson: Hold on please....
Corona Anatine: my dad was not a great conversationalist
herman Bergson: Let's stick to Roger's initial remark....
Corona Anatine: yeh
Roger Amdahl: a banana bench is band in same direction everywhere, not just outwards... observe !
herman Bergson: Corona..?! :-))
herman Bergson: the idea of a reason for everything....
herman Bergson: We love the idea....
Ciska Riverstone: well isn't that how we perceive the world as kids?
Corona Anatine: in what sense do you mean 'not a reason for everything'
Roger Amdahl: yes... it is just in our minds there should be a reason for things..
herman Bergson: But indeed it is at least a questionable stance
Ciska Riverstone: adults tell us all the time the reasons for things we have to do etc pp
Ciska Riverstone: so it is an experience for kids
Bejiita Imako: indeed
herman Bergson: yes Ciska...we are brought up with this belief
Corona Anatine: cos there are two different possible meanings to the word reason for' here
Bejiita Imako: does it have to be a reason for everything?
Ciska Riverstone: its important for us to find our way in societies in the first place as kids
herman Bergson: Yes Corona....there can be an intention behind the event or a cause...
Corona Anatine: the first is prior causuality the second has element of 'intended for' [by a designer]
herman Bergson: There Corona...we mean the same thing :-))
Roger Amdahl: you teach children with a reason , so they can g along in this society .. but that means nothing about the reason why we all here
Corona Anatine: : D
herman Bergson: I have no clue at all why we are al here Roger....
Roger Amdahl: I think there is no clue
herman Bergson: only seen from within a context I understand....
Ciska Riverstone: even the intent is learned by kids through parents... it is just learning by picking behaviour up
Corona Anatine: why we are here has no meaning
herman Bergson: I am in SL and so on....
Max Chatnoir: So the earth got hit by Theia (sp?) because their orbits crossed VS because Somebody thought we needed a moon?
Corona Anatine: other than the one we choose to have ourselves
herman Bergson: Interesting theory Max :-)
Bejiita Imako: yes'
herman Bergson: One remark about 'meaning"
herman Bergson: We create meaning withion contexts....
Roger Amdahl: We need the moon for mor stable earth, Stable climate and so .. That is why life could develop here .. just accidents adding up, no reason in it
Corona Anatine: but does 'god' even need to do more than just cause the initial expansion - after that the qauntum universe follws the laws of gravity etc
herman Bergson: Without a context it just doesn’t work...
Max Chatnoir: I wonder why it is harder to accept that we have to find our own meaning than that our life plan has been scripted for us?
herman Bergson: That implies a rather deterministic view on life Max...
Roger Amdahl: I am happy we have to find our purpose in life ourselves, and it is not dictated by some devine celestial dictator ..
Corona Anatine: assuming 'god' actually needed humans [ why] then it follows that it did not particulary matter which systems was suitable for life - eventually one or more would be somewhere
Max Chatnoir: Yes, it would, but some people seem to find it easier to believe.
herman Bergson: But if people like that, Max, how about their free will?
herman Bergson: are the robots?
Max Chatnoir: That's a good question.
Bejiita Imako: interesting
CB Axel: It feels better to say that someone has a bad life because of god's will then to say we all should make our own and others' lives better.
herman Bergson: Roger also gets nervous about a celestial dictator :-))
Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Agrees with CB
Max Chatnoir: I guess the free will in that case comes from deciding whether or not to go with the "plan".
Roger Amdahl: Free wil is ok ... If you want to believe, please do. But leave the other people alone, and don't force your ideas upon them.. That is where Religion is making most mistakes
Corona Anatine: we only believe that life 'needs ' moon and stable factors ect because we have them
Corona Anatine: that is in many was an assumption
herman Bergson: Hold on plz....
herman Bergson: We should make a sharp distinction here...
herman Bergson: What CB says is a psychological observation...not a philosophical one...
Corona Anatine: what CB axel or anyone else 'feels' about reality has no meaning to the universe
herman Bergson: What we here try to do is to find philosophical arguments and evidence for how people justify their existence
Roger Amdahl: No Corona. If we had no moon, earth's rotation would be very unstable, the north/south pole axis would swing like hell ... that implies very unstable climate.. , very hard to form life without a moon
Corona Anatine: being alive should be justification enough
CB Axel: Exactly. What I mean is that people who believe in god's will don't want to take responsibility for the state of the world.
Corona Anatine: that is perhaps so - until we find a planet without those that has life
Roger Amdahl: God's will you have a bad life ???? get serious please
Max Chatnoir: Story of Job?
CB Axel: Roger, that's what some people believe. Not me.
CB Axel: I'm just saying...
Corona Anatine: for instance a planet with a thick /dense atmosphere would not have extreme climate changes over the year however extreme the axial tilt
Corona Anatine: aslo
herman Bergson: irrelevant Corona...
Roger Amdahl: Yes... I know ... But I can't accept that stupid thinking
herman Bergson: we are discussing philosophy here ...
CB Axel: I can't either.
Corona Anatine: if it were a moon with an ice crust and liquid ocean beneath
Corona Anatine: so there are many parameters that allow life
herman Bergson: could you please stick to the subject
Roger Amdahl: *smiles
Max Chatnoir: Herman, I think you need a banana. :-)
CB Axel: LOL
herman Bergson: I think so too Max :-))
Roger Amdahl: Well, we are half a chromosome away from a chimpansee... banana's are nice
CB Axel: Maybe we should all step back for a banana break. LOL
herman Bergson: The second point roger mentioned was this Designer....
Corona Anatine: God's will you have a bad life - that assumes that you and 'god' share the same values as to what 'bad' is
Corona Anatine: which need not be
herman Bergson: This designer will be the focus of some oncoming lectures :-)
herman Bergson: As I said...there is a lot of money in the US behind that idea
Max Chatnoir: I have two bones to pick with the designer, and both of them are in my knees.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): who designed the designer?
Bejiita Imako: now thats an interesting idea
herman Bergson: ANd what I also notice is that the ID theory is mainly discussed in the US only
Corona Anatine: why is it assumed the 'designer' was intelligent
Bejiita Imako: the old saying turtles all way down might come in handy
Max Chatnoir: Yes, the support for "Answers in Genesis" is about 100x what science education gets.
Roger Amdahl: And the US being a secular state ... giving money to teach rubbish about designer without any proof of it ?? I am flabbergasted
herman Bergson: Roger...
Corona Anatine: well they do consider the bible to be 'proof'
Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thats due to where the schoolbooks are printed Roger
herman Bergson: There have been up to now at least 25 trials in Court to get ID in the educational system
Corona Anatine: yeh such as caddis flies having fish hooks
herman Bergson: In the US they go to court for that
Max Chatnoir: Max, who lives in Texas, is chagrinned.
herman Bergson: really fascinating....
Roger Amdahl: sorry Herman ... that is bullshit too.. Bible holds no proof ... There was no Excodus .. Israeli archeologists came to that conclusion based on facts.. no Noah's arc ... No whatever .. just stories
Corona Anatine: that does nt matter to the exponents of iD
herman Bergson: Roger...stay philosophical in this matter....
Roger Amdahl: oops .. Not responding to herman .. was responding to Corona
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is id?
Max Chatnoir: Intelligent Design.
Corona Anatine: they are ID adovates or just ID for short
CB Axel: I'm sure we all agree with that, Roger, but there are a lot of people here in the US who have never been taught how to think for themselves.
herman Bergson: I know what you mean...but we need clear arguments only....
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you
herman Bergson: Intelligent Design, Beertje
Corona Anatine: or anywhere else in the world come to that
Roger Amdahl: With so many proof of evolution, big bang ,... it troubles me to stay philosophical .. proof is overwhelming ..
Corona Anatine: few want to think for themselves - preferring long dead ancestors to think for them
CB Axel: Exactly, Corona.
herman Bergson smiles
herman Bergson: of course you are excused Roger ^_^
CB Axel: Thinkin' is hard. °͜°
Max Chatnoir: So we get stuck in the mindset we have when we are 7.
Max Chatnoir: Interesting.
Bejiita Imako: indeed, the right that all should have right to shoot each other all time in us having 20 guns per person is from some guys lived 300 years ago
herman Bergson: Yes Max....all"religious" ideas show up in the brain during that period....
Max Chatnoir: And ever so many people are ever so happy to take advantage of that.
Bejiita Imako: i dont get it
Bejiita Imako: in sweden only police and license hunters can have guns
Bejiita Imako: ins no right to have it
Bejiita Imako: its
herman Bergson: The belief in conscious objects, like trees, teddybears and so on...
Bejiita Imako: and also im alive today
CB Axel wishes she lived in Sweden.
herman Bergson: Like a young boy said....I need my body so I can run around
Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Its never too late CB
Max Chatnoir: Well, I get it. I remember being totally fascinated by the tales of the end of the world that kid next door told me. Kids love stories.
Corona Anatine: grass is alwas greener axel
Corona Anatine: Sweden has had rape incidents rise drastically in recent years
herman Bergson: And then the idea that everything has a reason....
CB Axel: My grass is covered by 13 inches of snow right now.
Max Chatnoir: God is testing you, CB. :-)
Corona Anatine: that would not change much in sweden
CB Axel: °͜°
herman Bergson: Lol no corona....would be 26 inch there
Corona Anatine: but how would nayone know what the tests are?
Roger Amdahl: Your grass will grow faster now because it is in the dark CB :) .. banana - theory ... watch the proof when snow disappears :)
CB Axel: hehehe
Max Chatnoir: I think that idea that everything has a reason is very persistent. I still get "What are cockroaches for" from my students.
CB Axel: I'm pretty sure I'm flunking god's test.
Corona Anatine: agfain how would you know
herman Bergson: Ahh yes Max....typical example...
Ciska Riverstone: without that drive - would we try to develop?
herman Bergson: No Ciska...it is the drive behind science....
Corona Anatine: cockroachs are for cockroaching
CB Axel: Max, tell them that the cockroaches aren't "for" anything, but this is how they fit into the life cycle.
herman Bergson: but here again we say: only EVIDENCE based....plz
Max Chatnoir: The thing that Haldane said about God = he must really have liked beetles.
Bejiita Imako: they just are
Bejiita Imako: like we all are
Bejiita Imako: i think at least
Corona Anatine: i thought it was hydrogen and empty space that 'god' liked
Max Chatnoir: I do, CB. I'm not sure I make much of a dent.
Roger Amdahl: Ohh.. here is another religious key word ... end of world. How to scare the people .. exactly .. predict end of world, and only if you believed all rubbish in this book, you will live for ever ... saying thank you all day .. sometimes accompanied by musical instruments... well, that sounds like hell to me .
herman Bergson: Answer the question within the proper context Max...
herman Bergson: Within the context of the food chain for instance...
Max Chatnoir: Yum.
Max Chatnoir: But that is a good idea.
Corona Anatine: well im sure there are tribes/groups that eat cockroaches
Max Chatnoir: I'm sure SOMEBODY eats cockroaches. Maybe rats.
herman Bergson: You could ask....why are you here for.....
Corona Anatine: bird would for one
herman Bergson: If you put is in a wide metaphysical perspective ti is anonsense question...
Max Chatnoir: I will have to look it up. :-)
CB Axel: Chickens eat cockroaches and I eat chickens, so I indirectly eat cockroaches.
herman Bergson: but within the context of SL, personal interest in philosophy , it can be properly answered
Corona Anatine: or you could ask from a cockroach perspective 'what are humans for
herman Bergson: lol
Corona Anatine: it is as meaningful
CB Axel: I like that, Corona.
herman Bergson: here we have the pure animism again :-))
Max Chatnoir: Frogs, beetles, geckos iguanas, parasitic wasps.
Ciska Riverstone: true corona - very important question for a cockroach
Roger Amdahl: Humans are for feeding the cockroaches ..
Max Chatnoir: Who doesn't love a gecko.
Max Chatnoir: I'll pull that out next time.
CB Axel: But do cockroaches even ask, or do they just go about their cockroachy business without worrying about it?
herman Bergson: and our ability to put a mind in an inanimate being
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do coclroaches screem when they se us, like we screem as we see a cockroach?
Corona Anatine: a more siginificant example than cockraoches would be -what are tapeworms for
Corona Anatine: they just are
CB Axel: Maybe wondering why we are here is what separates us from the cockroaches.
herman Bergson: Corona gives here the example of how deep this kind of thinking is embedded in us
Corona Anatine: oh its very deeply embedded
herman Bergson: oh yes...
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Corona
Bejiita Imako: ahaa
Corona Anatine: to se the universe as being here for our benefit
herman Bergson: and the earth as our property...
Corona Anatine: 'god ' also is seen as being here for our benefit
Max Chatnoir: Yes. We needed a moon for life to evolve so that WE could evolve.
Roger Amdahl: mm... how modest Corona .. the universe just for our benefit ?? LOL
herman Bergson: Roger...
herman Bergson: What else should we do with the universe?
Corona Anatine: wel that is how creationsist se eit
herman Bergson: As such it is a total waist of space, energy, matter....
herman Bergson: isnt it?
Roger Amdahl: mm.. what we do with cockroaches.? it is just there, because it happened..
Corona Anatine: to the ID folk the universe has the purpose of being here for our use
Chantal (nymf.hathaway): aren't we all the center?!
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why should we do something with the universe, we can't even make the earth healthy
herman Bergson: Well Chantal...that is the weird point....
Corona Anatine: and it follows that 'god' also is here for our purpose
Roger Amdahl: Well Herman , maybe to your surprise, the total sum of energy ( matter being a form of energy too) might be excactly ZERO !!
Roger Amdahl: no waist at all
herman Bergson: Whereever we look ...into space...it is moving away from US!
herman Bergson: that is very weird....
Corona Anatine: becsue despite having the whole of space and time to manage 'god' finds time to hear prayers
CB Axel: I don't blame space. It can't tolerate us.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we eat too much garlic...
herman Bergson whispers: Nooooo! Beertje...I love it!
Roger Amdahl: well .. garlic keeps the vampires away :)
Max Chatnoir: Never!
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
Bejiita Imako: hahaha¨
herman Bergson: Yes Roger you are right!
Max Chatnoir: God made garlic for population control.
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahah
Roger Amdahl: LOL
herman Bergson: SO I guess it is time for us all to get our garlic and end this class :-))
Bejiita Imako: when u eat it noone want to be near you
Bejiita Imako: lol
herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again ^_^
Bejiita Imako: at least afterwards
CB Axel reaches for another banana.
Bejiita Imako: ㋡
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not even universe Bejiita:)
herman Bergson: CLass dismissed.....
Bejiita Imako: this was good
CB Axel: Excellent discussion. Thank you, all.
Roger Amdahl: eat garlic too. you'll be fine with another garlic-lover :)
Corona Anatine: on the 8th day god made motorcycles
herman Bergson: And an A+ for the one of you who comes up with the best garlic recipe...
Bejiita Imako: i love garlic
Bejiita Imako: ok cu next time ㋡
Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thank you Herman and everyone else ㋡ Most interesting!
Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman - thanx folks
herman Bergson: I love to make Aioli....:-)
Corona Anatine: thanks Herman -good presentation
Roger Amdahl: Thanks Herman ... nice lecture, good discussion ..
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman :))
herman Bergson: My pleasure
Corona Anatine: so now we know why we are here-
Corona Anatine: to hear herman speak
Max Chatnoir: Good try, Herman! You know humans are supposed to be pedomorphic. Maybe that's why we keep the ideas we had when we were 7.
herman Bergson: Yes...
herman Bergson: homework...
CB Axel: I thought it was to feed bananas and garlic to cockroaches.
herman Bergson: The best Garlic dish recipe ..next Tuesday
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes:)
Bejiita Imako: good idea herman
Bejiita Imako: ㋡
Bejiita Imako: c then
Door Deluxe Plus: harry Moonwing has just entered your land !
Bejiita Imako: cu
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight all and sweet dreams about garlic:)
Bejiita Imako: hehe