For Marx labor is the central theme and thence he underpins his theory of history by drawing attention to a fundamental reality of human existence, the necessity to labor to ensure our physical survival.
Only once this is guaranteed may mankind pursue politics, science, art, religion, etc. Human labor, therefore, forms the materialist basis for society and is at the heart of Marx's account of history.
Thus, throughout history, in all societies and in all modes of production, from the earliest Paleolithic hunter-gatherers, through to feudal societies and to modern capitalist economies,
there is an everlasting Nature-imposed condition of human existence that compels humans to join together socially to produce their means of subsistence.
Then Marx gives a description of the historical stages of how humans joined together socially to labor and produce the means of their survival. Marx did regard his theory as a kind of hypothesis.
However, when Marx's ideas were converted into an iron ideology, his view of historical development was interpreted as a kind of determined natural process with an intrinsic heading and end-stage.
To Marx, hunter-gatherer societies, also known as primitive communist societies, were structured so that economic forces and political forces were one and the same. Societies generally did not have a state, property, money, nor social classes.
"Communist", not in the political sense as we know it with all kinds of unpleasant connotations from our recent history, but communist in the sense that everything belonged to the community.
But from that moment on things began to go wrong. For Marx, the basic question is: who owns the productive forces and means, to begin with, land and tools, and later, machines and even whole factories and in the end the capital, the money.
Individuals only have their own physical labor force and to survive they only can "sell" their labor force to those who own the productivity forces and means, which made the production possible of what people need to survive.
The next stage of development was the introduction of agriculture and slavery. The first example of social classes, slaves and Ancient citizens, who owned the productive forces.
Then the towns began to grow and there came gildes and a merchant class. The presence of nobility and serfdom marked the feudal stage, characteristic of the Middle Ages.
The merchant class would grow in size and eventually form the bourgeoisie. However, production was still largely for use.
And Marx himself lived in the pre-final stage: capitalism. The capitalist mode of production materialized when the rising bourgeois class grew large enough to institute a shift in the productive forces.
The bourgeoisie's primary form of production was in the form of commodities, i.e. they produced with the purpose of exchanging their products, that is, making money and a good profit.
Historically Marx's description is correct and I agree with the idea that the way productive forces and labor force are related, leads to a specific kind of social organization and relations in society.
What became problematic was, when this historical materialistic approach turned into a dogmatism and ideology, because you should understand that from a cultural perspective, an ideology is identical with a religion: a product of the human brain.
These are only two different words for the same system: a set of indisputable dogmas (if you criticize them you're dead), a rather monolithic description of the human condition and moral rules, and a clear view of how things ought to be.
To me christianity, islam, buddhism, communism, liberalism, and whatever -ism are all ideologies, which historically have emerged and still survive based on the historical materialist situation of homo sapiens.
We have seen some -isms fail and some being more or less successful. Others have led to war and terrorism and still do. If Marx lived at this moment, what type of historical stage would he see our world now in?
Thank you for your attention......
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
The Discussion
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:18] herman Bergson: Take your time to let it sink in :-)
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): He would (hopefully) be horrified, its not a pretty world at the moment
[13:19] Max Chatnoir: No it isn't.
[13:20] herman Bergson: True, but it is this movement from stage to stage he saw in history....
[13:20] herman Bergson: and in the communist countries from the 1950s they believed they had reached the final stage: rule of the proletariat
[13:21] herman Bergson: But the communist countries fell apart....
[13:21] herman Bergson: capitalism seemed to have "won"
[13:21] Max Chatnoir: Except was it really the rule of the proletariat or of oligarchs?
[13:22] herman Bergson: of course you are right, Max...
[13:22] herman Bergson: It was the rule according to Animal Farm: All animales are equal, but some animals are more equal
[13:23] herman Bergson: It were all dictatorships...all communist countries, I'd say
[13:23] herman Bergson: no freedom of speech or opinion, no rule by the majority
[13:23] herman Bergson smiles
[13:24] herman Bergson: the you may ask....how so...should that be the rule??? :-)
[13:24] Max Chatnoir: Yuck.
[13:24] herman Bergson: I sound somewhat chauvinistic about democracy as a political system :-)
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ...
[13:25] herman Bergson: I admit, I am biased
[13:25] Max Chatnoir: But American democracy has gone adrift.
[13:25] herman Bergson: May I scare you Max??
[13:25] Max Chatnoir: I'm already scared, Herman!
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: But go ahead!
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)
[13:26] herman Bergson: I just saw a news message that revealed that there is a froup that is preparing the return of Trump in office...
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): O NO!
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes true
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how, by storming capitolium again ?
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or other government buildings
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sheesh
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u never know with trump supprters
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: It's looking like he might really win this one. I hope I'm wrong about that.
[13:27] herman Bergson: And their plan is that he should invoke the Insurrection act at the very first day he is in office and use the military to subdue all protests of any kind in the country
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): trump should be locked into a padded cell!
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: I wonder if the military will fall into line with that.
[13:27] herman Bergson: stay facvtual Bejiita
[13:28] herman Bergson: That was what I was wondering too, Max
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or in a sealed box at boits just so ,,,well
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well see what happens oi guess
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I
[13:28] herman Bergson: stay factual, Bejiita
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:29] herman Bergson: But I really wondered about the question how Marx would interpret the present political landscape
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed, how would he react
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good, bad?
[13:30] herman Bergson: To me his views that crystallized into a dogmatic Marxism is just one of the political points of view
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well...Sweden is actually a good example....
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:31] herman Bergson: in the 1960s we looked at what was happening there....a real social state...
[13:31] herman Bergson: good childcare, a better position ofor women in society...good social welfare conditions....
[13:32] herman Bergson: This developed in the Netherlands and other european countries too in those years
[13:33] herman Bergson: and it is all deconstructed since 1980 with the introduction of neo-liberalism
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it seems like that
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): down the drain
[13:33] herman Bergson: and now we have to pick up the pieces of this destructive anti-social policy
[13:33] Max Chatnoir: What went wrong?
[13:34] herman Bergson: The same as in the US under Reagan Max
[13:34] herman Bergson: He said....you are not the problem, the government is the problem....
[13:35] herman Bergson: and that was the birth of the idea that less government and more free market would be the solution
[13:35] herman Bergson: and that was what happened in the Netherlands too
[13:35] Max Chatnoir: But was it really free market?
[13:35] herman Bergson: Competition.....
[13:35] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example....
[13:36] herman Bergson: the state is paying for healthcare.....and hospitals and so on...
[13:37] herman Bergson: It can do that because all citizens in the country were OK with the idea that everyone related to their income would give the government money for that jog....taxes...
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:37] herman Bergson: But in the 1980s they began to day...healthcare is getting too expensive
[13:38] herman Bergson: When products become expensive, you need competition....so firm A is cheaper than firm B...competition....let them fight n the free market
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: Ah, and people who could afford private health care didn't want their taxes going to public health care?
[13:39] herman Bergson: And this idea got instilled in the healthcare system too
[13:39] herman Bergson: First of all that Max.....the rich didn't like to pay for the poor
[13:39] herman Bergson: and why?
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MINE ONLY MINE!
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because of that
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that mindset
[13:40] herman Bergson: Because the loved to make profits and enjoy the benefits of the society they live in, but were not interested in paying for it
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): take but not giving back
[13:41] herman Bergson: Just take the US infra structure....Oh yes we love good roads.....but to pay taxes to maintain them...sorry...no
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): with competition they said thing would be cheaper for us, but it went the other way round
[13:41] herman Bergson: so no hospitals don't trat sick people anymore....:-)
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): instead they flee to tax paradises
[13:41] herman Bergson: Hwere in the Netherlands the deliver a product....
[13:42] herman Bergson: the patient has becvome a customer
[13:42] herman Bergson: a client
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hospitals have to make profit
[13:42] herman Bergson: who is sometimes too expensive to treat even
[13:42] herman Bergson: Right Beertje
[13:43] herman Bergson: What has disappeared in our society is our willingness to share
[13:43] herman Bergson: to show solidarity with the less fortunate in our soviety
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a while a go a comican made a bunch of cristmas songs. one was about CEO for private hospitals floating around in a tax paradise while the patients elderly at that hospital in questiol were sleeping in their own shit because of lack of resources cause profit u know
[13:43] herman Bergson: self enrichment is more important
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that kind of story
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and indeed its true
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes it happens Bejiita
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no good development for sure
[13:45] herman Bergson: And yes Beertje...I heard it in my days in education to....joining educational institutes would contribute to more efficency....
[13:46] herman Bergson: lower the costs...
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but it's the other way round
[13:47] herman Bergson: Didn't it ever occur to you that the religion of today is called Economics anf that the name of the God is Profit maximization
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed true
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sheesh!
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so true3
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes..sadly enough
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:48] herman Bergson: SO, I guess that is the current situation politically where we are in in Europe....
[13:48] herman Bergson: We don't know where to go to.... endless economic growth is a fallen angel
[13:49] herman Bergson: But sharing and solidarity and equal distribution of all benefits of a society are forgotten ideas
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm seems so
[13:50] herman Bergson: It still is everyone for himself first
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmmm
[13:50] herman Bergson: Which leads to polirizations...
[13:50] herman Bergson: polarixations
[13:50] herman Bergson: whatever :-))
[13:50] Max Chatnoir: :-)
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): except those little groups of man that work for free to restore things that many people can';t buy new
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): repaire:)
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm the right to repair movement
[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje....homo sapiens eventually never gives up doing the right thing :-)
[13:52] Max Chatnoir: I sure hope we get our heads straight before the next election.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hope fir the best
[13:52] herman Bergson: Gonna be an exciting time Max.....I watch it on a daily basis....
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it Trump wins we are in big trouble
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok ㋡
[13:52] herman Bergson: The question really is...
[13:52] Max Chatnoir: I agree.
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders even more)
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that would be REALLY bad
[13:53] herman Bergson: Are Americans really such a bunch of idiots to elect a criminal as their president and give him the nuclear codes or not?
[13:53] Max Chatnoir: There has to be a way out, but I can't see what it is. The crazier Trump gets, the more devoted his base is.
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also now he probably wants revenge on everyone framing him ect that he is gonna cause n even bigger disaster
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everyone that put him on trial ect
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm that too Max
[13:54] herman Bergson: Well, Max, if he gets convicted 6% (!) of the voters will abandon him and vote for his opponent
[13:54] Max Chatnoir: Will that be enough?
[13:55] herman Bergson: Six percent!!!!! Almost hilarious but yet decisive for the outcome of the election
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said, he belongs in a padded cell, not in white house
[13:55] herman Bergson: There is one hope....
[13:55] herman Bergson: If there ever has been a great loser in US history. then it is Trump
[13:56] herman Bergson: He so far has lost everything
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is a BAD looser thats for sure
[13:56] herman Bergson: his casinos
[13:56] herman Bergson: his university
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hid brain
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): his
[13:56] herman Bergson: his flight company,
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that he had already lost
[13:56] herman Bergson: his re-election
[13:57] herman Bergson: all his court cases
[13:57] Max Chatnoir: Oh, please put it on the list!
[13:57] herman Bergson: So, there is hope
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are us people stupid?
[13:57] herman Bergson: He lost in his testimony last Monday too
[13:57] Max Chatnoir: Well, I think he is worried.
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems the majority are on the right side in the end
[13:58] herman Bergson: Oh , he is
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): turning their back on him
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good sign for sure
[13:58] herman Bergson: Especially for MArch 4, 2024
[13:58] herman Bergson: He is fighting like hell to get that date postponed....and loses every attempt to get it done
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:59] herman Bergson: I think it has to do with American psychology
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Putin wil launche fake ideas on media canals
[13:59] Max Chatnoir: Yes, if he gets convicted soon enough, maybe there is some hope.
[13:59] herman Bergson: Americans think in terms of losers and winners
[13:59] Max Chatnoir: So does Trump
[13:59] herman Bergson: and they love idols
[14:00] herman Bergson: But as I once said...how do you make a loser into a winner
[14:00] herman Bergson: by calling him a victim
[14:00] herman Bergson: That is what Trump does...playing the victim
[14:00] Max Chatnoir: Well, that's his strategy.
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we will all be victims if that man wins
[14:01] Max Chatnoir: Yes.
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders again)
[14:01] herman Bergson: and all who supported him through the years can justify themselves by forgetting what losers they are supporting him....they too are the victims now
[14:01] herman Bergson: I am afraid ro too Beertje
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a revenge crazed and insane presidend + all of his equally insane and revenge crazed supporters ready to take his side
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that can get REALLLLY messy
[14:02] herman Bergson: If thet idiot will make the US leave NATO for instance...all hell might break loose
[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not a good moment inded
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): right now
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nuke war?
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Putin ia waiting for it
[14:03] herman Bergson: So...Max....go out and tell the people around you that we are greatly worried about what is going on in your country
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what u said before herman is one hope at least
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that things go in right direction
[14:04] herman Bergson: And I am not joking at all...and only 74...hopng that I won't be there anymore when hell breaks loose...
[14:04] herman Bergson: Selfish..I know
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well noone wants to experience armageddon
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or somethign similar
[14:05] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita
[14:05] herman Bergson: Just look what is happening in Ukrain...
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm and israel/palesting
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): palestine
[14:05] herman Bergson: ah yes...even worse almost
[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): teking their revenge on civilian population back and forth
[14:06] Max Chatnoir: Yes.
[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): totally unimaginable, how can u do a such thing?
[14:06] herman Bergson: Max, you have a mission.....save us and yourself....make people vote
[14:07] Max Chatnoir: I will do my best. :-)
[14:07] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes !
[14:07] herman Bergson: I know :-)
[14:07] herman Bergson: Still wonder waht Marx would think about our situation :-)
[14:07] Max Chatnoir: I hassle all my friends and neighbors every election.
[14:08] herman Bergson: Let's save that for another lecture :-)
[14:08] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok ㋡
[14:08] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[14:08] herman Bergson: Very good Max....tell them how we are watching you all from Europe!
[14:08] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:09] Max Chatnoir: Don't make the Europeans pity us!
[14:09] herman Bergson: Tomorrow Ivanka in the stand...so...partytime again :-)
[14:09] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki ㋡
[14:09] Max Chatnoir: That will be interesting. Hard on her, probably.
[14:09] herman Bergson: Indeed Max....can't wait to see the results
[14:10] herman Bergson: Well. I guess I have to cooll down my keyboard now :-))
[14:10] herman Bergson: So, let me thank you all again
[14:10] Max Chatnoir: :-)
[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (throws some lubricating oil over to Herman)
[14:10] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....:-)
[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i can hear the keys squeak from here even indeed
[14:10] Max Chatnoir: passes Herman an ice pack.
[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:10] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman for this lecture
[14:11] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good again
[14:11] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:11] herman Bergson: Thank you, thank you :-)
[14:11] bergfrau Apfelbaum: as always, it was very interesting! thank you Herman and class
[14:11] Max Chatnoir: Yes, and thank all of you for the conversation!
[14:11] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok and now, the usual?
[14:11] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:11] Max Chatnoir: Have fun!
[14:11] herman Bergson: You too Max
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