Everything humans have accomplished anywhere—from architecture to music, from art to science—developed hand in hand with religion, never separately.
It is impossible, therefore, to know what morality would look like without religion. It would require a visit to a human culture that is not now and never was religious. That such cultures do not exist is an interesting fact.
Although science and since recently Artificial Intelligence play a major role in society, it is good to realize that science didn't start out as a rational enterprise.
In the Middle Ages alchemy was a mix of the occult, superstition, and experiments. It turned into an empirical science only when it liberated itself from these influences and developed self-correcting procedures.
But did this development make science contribute to a moral society? Even when we know all the facts, they don't tell us what we ought to do.
Other primates, of course, have none of these problems, but even they strive for a certain kind of society. In their behavior, we recognize the same values we pursue ourselves.
For example, female chimpanzees have been seen to drag reluctant males toward each other to make up after a fight, while removing weapons from their hands.
We see animals that work together to achieve a specific goal, chimpanzees that help each other to obtain food. You could see these hints of community concerns as a sigh
that the building blocks of morality are older than mankind and that we don't need a god to explain how we got to where we are today.
What it is all about is the striking fact that the main topic of atheism, the existence or non-existence of a god, is in fact completely uninteresting.
What do you hope to get from a debate about the existence of something no one can prove or disprove? A waste of time.
The main point to make here is, that when you look at the evolution, we can conclude that there were social animals, animals that had a sense and care for community and cooperation, long before homo sapiens appeared on the stage.
It is an illusion to believe that science is an unbiased system of facts, from which we can draw conclusions. The belief that more knowledge leads to a better society, is questionable.
Certainly, teaching people to think properly, stay factual and logical, try to be impartial and honest, great features, but they don't come from scientific discoveries. They come from within us.
The view of morality as a set of immutable principles, or laws, that are ours to discover ultimately comes from religion.
It doesn’t matter whether God, human reason, or science formulates these laws.
All of these approaches share a top-down orientation, their chief premise being that humans don’t know how to behave and that someone must tell them. A popular attitude of religions: humiliating the individual to subject it to religious control.
But get back to my previous remark: long before there was homo sapiens there were animals on this planet, that had a social life, lived in groups, and showed a sense of community and care for each other.
This would indicate that morality doesn't come from some transcendental being or oracle, but lives in our genes. It is just a matter of finding out how this quality has evolved and is integrated in our lives.
Maybe this we can learn from observing other primates.
Thank you for your attention again....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - Th Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
The Discussion
[13:15] Max Chatnoir: Thank you, Herman.
[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:16] herman Bergson: Animals, other primates are no moral beings.
[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): female chimpanzees have been seen to drag reluctant males toward each other to make up after a fight...maybe a good way to end wars
[13:17] herman Bergson: But they show behavior that we as humans value too.
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:17] Max Chatnoir: I wonder what the boundary between morality and community opinion is?
[13:17] herman Bergson: At least among Chimpanzees, Beertje
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): perhaps a good idea for humans too
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess could work yes
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:19] herman Bergson: Morality goes further Max. Contrary to animals we can have an opinion about right and wrong, even if the issue doesn't concern us directly.
[13:19] Max Chatnoir: True!
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): our main problem is our greed for power
[13:20] herman Bergson: Some even explicitly advise to teach children altruism, as it doesn't seem present in our basic drives
[13:21] bergfrau Apfelbaum: @ “What do you hope to get from a debate about the existence of something that no one can prove or disprove?” Fairy tales aren’t necessarily a waste of time :-)
[13:21] herman Bergson: Homo sapiens seems to be pretty selfish by nature :-))
[13:21] herman Bergson: Ok Bergie, the debate can be amusing :-))
[13:21] Max Chatnoir: Who was it who said I would give up my life for two brothers or 8 cousins?
[13:22] Max Chatnoir: The idea was to promote the survival of the family genes.
[13:22] herman Bergson: I have no idea, Max
[13:22] Max Chatnoir: So altruism has some biological value.
[13:22] Max Chatnoir: I'll google it.
[13:23] herman Bergson: It definitely has some biological value
[13:23] Max Chatnoir: Ah, Haldane!
[13:24] bergfrau Apfelbaum: call ma Altri:-)
[13:24] herman Bergson: But the idea is that the primary impulse is to act selfish
[13:24] Max Chatnoir: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/05/05/brothers/
[13:24] herman Bergson: Never heard of Haldane
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nope
[13:25] herman Bergson: Neo-Darwinist
[13:26] herman Bergson: Died in 1964
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._B._S._Haldane
[13:28] herman Bergson: I guess we are done with the debate unless you still have a remark or question?
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: Well, I think that trying to decide how to behave well, is worth doing.
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i have no remark today
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Max
[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes, that is what morality is about
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm I don't know how to develop this much firther but saying that the suggestions proposes seems indeed like an idea
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but as said, some peoples greed for power throw a wrench in it all
[13:30] herman Bergson: Power corrupts the mind of some people
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then 1 man can hold millions hostage, like Putin and Kon Jong and aso chinas communist party
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just a few people hold billions of others hostage
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a BIG problem
[13:31] herman Bergson: Hard to understand
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: I've been disturbed at the political diatribes of some of the candidates for the US election.
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: A lot of name-calling.
[13:31] herman Bergson: They give me the shivers too, Max
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm yes
[13:32] herman Bergson: It is not adult behavior
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: Exactly, and it isn't rational!
[13:32] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i also believe that morality is in the genes.... but there are people who lack this gene
[13:33] herman Bergson: We have about 245 days till we get the answer
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so for sure
[13:33] Max Chatnoir: If the point of discussion is to find a good way for the country to be managed, we aren't doing very well.
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (sighs)
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just hope the right thing happens
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in the end
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all we can do I guess
[13:34] herman Bergson: Like many hu,man qualities Bergie we see the Gaussian curve....
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:35] herman Bergson: some people are stupid, som are very clever and the remainder of the population is distributed in between the extremes
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what about the influence of the media?
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: The media are also just human beings with their preferences and biases....
[13:37] bergfrau Apfelbaum: back to paper mail
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: Yes, and we tend to pay attention to the media that reflects our own values.
[13:37] herman Bergson: The problem is more the question what and why are people willing to believe some things, statements etc.
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: That is a puzzle, allright!
[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Max
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the issue with media is their desire like all others to sell and so they blow up news to larger proportions then they really are to have something to put on the frontpage so more people will buy the paper
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sometimes we therefore cant trust even the news
[13:39] herman Bergson: So we seek or prefer to seek confirmation.
[13:39] herman Bergson: The money involved is indeed a huge problem
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:40] Max Chatnoir: Yes, I've been appalled at how much money gets involved in political decisions.
[13:40] Max Chatnoir: How can that be legal?
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause the lawmakers themselves are bribed i guess
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): corruption everywhere
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a mess
[13:41] herman Bergson: HOw money makes politics in the US is unbelievable
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ITS ALL BOUT THE MONEY! ITS ALL BOUT THE DUMDADUMDUMDUM!
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it is
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said, a mess
[13:43] herman Bergson: Well, let's continue our search for the origins of morality in a nex lecture :-)
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: Educating the legislators is one thing, but just paying them off is horrible.
[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-)
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:44] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: I always enjoy your talks and these discussions.
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: :-)
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