Primates, like chimpanzees, live in a cutthroat world, which forces a male to conceal physical impairment for as long as possible in order to keep up a tough façade.
Men show the same behavior: to begin with a man doesn't cry, then he doesn't complain about pain. Aren't we educated with the advice "Come on boy, be a big boy"?
But second, the chimpanzees are part of a tight community, in which they can count on affection and assistance from others, including non-relatives. We call it social behavior.
This duality is crucial. Morality would be superfluous if we were universally nice.
What would there be to worry about if all that humans ever did was show sympathy for one another, and never steal,
never stab someone in the back, never covet another’s wife? This is clearly not how we are, and it explains the need for moral rules.
On the other hand, we could design a zillion rules to promote respect and care for others, but they’d come to nothing if we didn’t already lean in that direction.
This inclination enables us to tell right from wrong and this knowledge shows us that we can be good or bad. This includes the willingness to help the other in certain troubling circumstances.
Among animals, there are many examples. Defending their hive, honeybees die shortly after having stung intruders. Chimpanzees rescue each other from leopard attacks.
Squirrels give alarm calls that warn others of danger but might put them in danger. Elephants try to lift up fallen comrades. But why would any animal act on behalf of another? Isn’t this against the laws of nature?
We all know that Wall Street's slogan "Greed is good", in other words at the bottom we are selfish animals that act for selfish reasons. That doesn't match with altruism,
defined as behavior that costs you something, such as taking a risk or expending energy, while it benefits another. In other words, what was pointed out as unselfish, altruistic behavior, was in fact selfish behavior.
It resulted even in a book written by Richard Dawkins in 1976, titled "The Selfish Gene". No altruism. All behaviors in nature lead back to genes trying to copy themselves, which is the core of the selfish gene theory.
Selfishness and altruism can be explained by animals acting to protect themselves or their relatives, who will, by definition, share many of their genes.
The altruistic impulse, as de Waal calls it, and which is closely connected with our ability to experience empathy and compassion, was downplayed, ridiculed even, and morality was taken off the table entirely.
We were only slightly better than social insects. Human kindness was seen as a charade and morality as a thin veneer over a cauldron of nasty tendencies.
The "Veneer theory" is a term then coined by de Waal to label the Hobbesian view of human morality that he criticizes throughout his work.
Although he criticizes this view in earlier works, the term in this form is introduced in his 2005 book "Our Inner Ape", denoting a concept that he rejects,
namely that human morality is "a cultural overlay, a thin veneer hiding an otherwise selfish and brutish nature".
The idea of the veneer theory goes back to Thomas Henry Huxley (1825 - 1895) and has more recently been advocated by biologists like George C. Williams.
It is interesting to see how many still want to see homo sapiens as some mean animal with fortunately a few moral controls. Makes me think of our project 20 - The Optimist (9 Febr 2020 / 824), more than 283 lectures ago :-)
Thank you for your attention again....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - Th Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
The Discussion
[13:16] herman Bergson: The chimpanzee genes vs the bonobo genes....
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah I guess
[13:17] herman Bergson: While working on this lecture....I found this genes view from the 70s and 80s a bit weird....
[13:18] herman Bergson: It suggests that genes control our mind, our behavior....we are genes not personal identities actually
[13:18] herman Bergson: I found it far fetched actually
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well genes are the code of life but do they encode my personality, partially I would say yes but therre is more to it
[13:19] herman Bergson: On the other hand..there is proof that there is some genetic defect, you can become a serial killer or something like that...yeah..sorry...is in the genes
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so we don't have a free will?..it's our genes....if I punch Bejiita on his nose, it's not my fault?..it's the genes?
[13:20] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita....there is so much to say about NATURE vs NURTURE for instance
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe well
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): try me
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:21] herman Bergson: Indentical twins aren't identical perrsonalities, for instance
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nope
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and aso external influences play a role i guess
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also
[13:21] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol Beertje
[13:22] herman Bergson: Frans de Waal rejects this genes approach of evolution....
[13:22] herman Bergson: The idea that the HENES wnat to survive....
[13:22] herman Bergson: GENES
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but what determines our interests?
[13:23] herman Bergson: Well, Beertje, yhat is a good point
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like why am I an engineer and not a doctor for example
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[13:23] herman Bergson: (and I love your genes :-))
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahhahaha
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ive always been tech interested for ex
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also my macho factor is 0 even im a guy
[13:24] herman Bergson: OH...that must be an anomaly Bejiita :-))
[13:24] herman Bergson: Have you been to the doctor for it?
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): to the hairdresser...
[13:25] herman Bergson: Who gave you that Mach factor, by the way?
[13:25] herman Bergson: yeah that tooo Beeertje
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i AM actually a little anomalous. Im diagnistisised with Aspergers wich probably stems from my biological parents having alcohol issues while having me
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and indeed I have always been a bit special but im highly intelligent, had high grades ect but for sure it plays a part, but thats not the ony reason I am like I am i think
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im just well a nice dude
[13:26] herman Bergson: Whatever it is with your genes Bejiita, you are good at your RL work and you are good here...so perfect binairy genes
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa i say that also
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:27] herman Bergson: Sustained :-)
[13:27] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and we always have a good time
[13:27] bergfrau Apfelbaum: you are the mister
[13:27] bergfrau Apfelbaum: * PLUPP *
[13:27] herman Bergson: Right....
[13:27] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:28] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thE best!
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): PLUPPELIPLOPP
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:28] bergfrau Apfelbaum: * PLUPP * PLUPP * PLUPP *
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:28] bergfrau Apfelbaum: grins
[13:28] herman Bergson: So from the 1970s till...welll I guess 1990s this gene theory was very popular
[13:29] herman Bergson: And de Waal always has opposed that view based on his observations of primate behavior
[13:29] bergfrau Apfelbaum: every person's personality develops over the years. with the genes that do not control us 100%. otherwise the deceased would continue to live
[13:30] herman Bergson: So...we need another lecture which might reveal info on why he had arguments to oppose this gene theory:-)
[13:31] herman Bergson: In your language it already shows the main problem, Bergie.....
[13:31] bergfrau Apfelbaum: was very interesting again, dear Genes
[13:31] herman Bergson: you talk of genes that control us or not....
[13:31] herman Bergson: are genes conscious entitties?
[13:32] herman Bergson: If not Bejiita gets punshed on the nose soon because Beertjes genes dictate that to her :-)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hhaha
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wel genes are just chemical substnaces, amino acids in different combinations
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but working more or less like 10101011000011 for a computer
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but not entirley
[13:33] herman Bergson: So, Beertje check your genes and have a moral conversation with them about what you can and cannot do :-)
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:33] bergfrau Apfelbaum: maybe it is just a memory passed down through mixing liquids (kissing, and so on...) ?
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol, i will check them
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the difference with DNA is there are 4 different values (amino acids) and not just 2 like in binary
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think there are 4
[13:34] herman Bergson: 5 is ok too, Bejiita, I don't mind :-)
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): one more ore less...who cares?
[13:35] herman Bergson: But at least we may conclude that this gene driven evlution theory is debatable...
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): need to check, the think is like with binary code they form a string of "data" that controls how we work
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thing
[13:35] herman Bergson: and we'll gonna debate it in the on coming lectures....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:35] herman Bergson: so get ready for a nice weekend....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): looking forward to it
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:36] herman Bergson: Thank you....class dismissed.....
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:36] bergfrau Apfelbaum: danke Herman and class
[13:36] bergfrau Apfelbaum: /clap
[13:36] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ~Applause~
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay
[13:36] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
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