Tuesday, February 2, 2021

898: In Search of a New Approach.....

It is about time, that we go and look for a new approach to organize and shape our society. What path can the countries of the European continent take now that the neoliberal era has come to an end? 


The call to return to classical forms of liberalism or socialism will undoubtedly resound, but personally, I don't believe this makes much sense. 


And it seems even impossible because of the way our social existence has changed over the past half-century. 


Any attempts to address our problems with state bureaucracy, government control, or political planning will be met with skepticism in Europe. 


That may be possible in a country like China, where many individuals submit to a collective code, but not in our society, where our freedom of movement has only increased in recent decades. 


We also question classic liberal pleas for less government and more competition or market forces. 


That may be possible in the United States, where many deeply distrust the state, but not in mainland Europe, where no one really wants to give up the welfare state. 


An interesting detail here is, that the US never has known or experienced the welfare state and where a significant minority is adamantly against every social concern and responsibility of the state.


In that respect, it is interesting to see how countries see themselves. The United States boasted of its democracy and believed in its exceptionalism, while for me this role is over and socially it still has a long way to go.


So what emerges is the need for a separate path that overcomes the dilemma between a "supermarket" such as the US 


and a "superstate" such as China and finds a new middle ground between these two extremes. 


Incidentally, this new path cannot consist either of a form of New Public Management, the philosophy that wanted to unite the success of state power, 


rationalization, and market forces and innovation, but that on balance reinforced the evil of the state, that is the exercise of coercion, and that of the market and increased competition. 


Of course, when looking for that new route, it is not enough to reject the aforementioned models or methods.


Let's summarize. The liberal mindset: We've discussed a few prominent philosophers. They have a few things in common. 


First, they oppose all centralized exercise of power. Whether it was by an absolute monarch - John Locke -, by monopolies creating merchants - Adam Smith -, 


by the exertion of social pressure - John Stuart Mill - or by state interference - Milton Friedman - liberal thinkers continue to emphasize the dire consequences. 


Second, they strive for a maximum of individual freedom of movement. 


This liberal thinking has changed little over the centuries, but what neoliberalism has added is 


that administrative and political rulers have enforced a number of liberal values ​​on society. 


In the 1980s, efforts to realize the liberal dream began in many countries, with the main tools being privatization of the public sector, 


New Public Management and a firm belief in market forces. The administrative elites took three steps that ultimately led to our world, having changed radically compared to previous decades. 


The first step was to shift their loyalty from the labor factor to the capital factor. 


The second step was that they applied the idea of market forces in all kinds of areas that were previously under the control of the government. 


The third step was to see the state and politics themselves in business terms. 


The result was that political power formation and economic market forces gradually merged, while because of this motives of a professional, social or moral nature increasingly marginalized.


It is time to rethink our situation.


Thank you for your attention.....


MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Gabriel van den Brink:"Ruw Ontwaken uit een Neoliberale Droom",, 2020


 The Discussion   

[13:22] herman Bergson: What just came to my mind...

[13:23] herman Bergson: For ten years now we have a liberal prime minister.....

[13:23] herman Bergson: and one of the complaints about him is...

[13:23] herman Bergson: that he runs the state like a company....

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:23] herman Bergson: he for instance detests VISION.....A true political perspective..

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I have to keep reminding myself that liberal here in US is so different from this neo lib  and that is exactly what the Republicans adopted when Trump was elected

[13:24] CB Axel nods

[13:24] herman Bergson: The Reps are extremely neoliberal

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:25] herman Bergson: the go for the big companies....

[13:25] herman Bergson: But the Dems are't better :-)

[13:25] herman Bergson: They lost all contact with the workers

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:26] herman Bergson: Like here in the netherlands...they have become the party of people with high education

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not really

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): workers get nothing and the bosses and stock market cash in on it all

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i mean not lost contact

[13:27] herman Bergson: I think that there isn't a political party in the US that is interested in the worker class

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there is a Workers party but small

[13:27] herman Bergson: Neither is there in the Netherlands

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): more active on the local level

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): basically its slavery, the workers produce the profit but the bosses takes it all'

[13:28] herman Bergson: The Unions are all teeth-less today

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): without workers there would be no profit

[13:28] CB Axel: That's because there is too much money in politics. Workers can't contribute as much as big business can.

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well Biden hopes ot change that

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): actually just in the past year there is a small "surge " in labor unions

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and it will continue

[13:29] herman Bergson: We really are in need of a new approach in society

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa

[13:30] herman Bergson: Coming lectures I might offer a new perspective...

[13:30] herman Bergson: at least for European countries

[13:31] CB Axel: Voters need to elect statesmen who want to help people rather than politicians who only want to help themselves.

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): send them a copy

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa yes

[13:32] herman Bergson: This is what strikes me so much, CB.....those senators and congres members that only act on behalf of themselves...

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): most very true

[13:32] CB Axel: And their friends

[13:32] herman Bergson: yes

[13:32] herman Bergson: so odd.....

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some are really dedicated  to service

[13:32] CB Axel: They have convinced themselves that saving the upper class is what's best for the country.

[13:33] CB Axel: And they've convinced a lot of people in all classes of that.

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they just want to make MORE MONEY

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not care for the people

[13:33] herman Bergson: In line with Michael Sandels book "The Tiranny of Merits"

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well they want to stay in Washington

[13:34] CB Axel: I don't know why.

[13:34] CB Axel: Washington is a cesspool.

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): power

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:35] herman Bergson: I have come to the conclusion that the identity of the Reps is being against everything a Dem proposes.....there is no political vision,,,no perspective....no alternative

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but

[13:36] CB Axel: Yes. They didn't even bother with writing a platform for the last election.

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Pres Biden KNOWS the process

[13:36] CB Axel: They won't say what they're for, but we can see what they do.

[13:36] herman Bergson: Indeed CB.....so weird...

[13:36] CB Axel: Their actions show us what's in their hearts. If they have hearts.

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm 

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if anyone can get cooperation from the Rep senators he knows how

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): fingers crossed

[13:37] CB Axel: Gemma, you can't just blame Trump. The whole party just didn't bother with writing out a platform.

[13:37] herman Bergson: I hope so, Gemma.....

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:37] CB Axel: He's not getting it so far.

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the Republicans should be called anti democrats, like antichrist

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): He has not submitted anything yet cb

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as u said

[13:37] CB Axel: The Rep. Senators still won't vote for Trump's impeachment.

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just about MORE MONEY

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is working by executive order

[13:38] herman Bergson: The vision I'll gonna unfold will sound like cursing in the church in the US, I fear ^_^

[13:38] CB Axel: Bejiita, I don't think it's just money.

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): forget that He is NOT lobbying for that

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well a big part is

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and status, and those go hand in hand

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): leaving it to the senate

[13:38] CB Axel: They also want to make sure that women and minorities are denied rights.

[13:39] herman Bergson: No Bejiita....it is a complete lack of real social vision......social and political direction.....

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so they cant threaten their status

[13:39] herman Bergson: it is not simply a matter of money....

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lets have a little hope

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its a mess i would say

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lil

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a sad mess

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): had been one week!!!!!!!!!

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:39] CB Axel: They want an all white America run by men.

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Biden will bring change now anyway

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we can hope for that

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes CB...I guess so too

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed CB

[13:40] herman Bergson: it is a pathetic loser's wish in a multicultural country of immigrants

[13:40] CB Axel: And that's something Europe hasn't had to deal with until recently. Europe has been all white and mostly run by men.

[13:40] herman Bergson: white hubris

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Herman

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): goodness

[13:41] CB Axel: But Europe has been much better at electing women to high office.

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:41] herman Bergson: Germany was run by a woman for 16 years if I am not mistaken

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and England for some

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Margaret Thatcher for one

[13:42] herman Bergson: And it is the most influential country in Europe atm

[13:42] CB Axel: But now that a lot of people are emigrating from Africa, the Middle East, and south Asia, Europe is having to deal with multiculturalism, too.

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and actually a few good queens too

[13:42] herman Bergson: Margy brought us this neoliberalism Gemma ....:-(

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lol'

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i agree

[13:42] CB Axel: I hated Thatcher almost as much as I hate Trump. :(

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaah

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but at least she was a woman

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have to accept some strong women are going to go the way we would not

[13:43] herman Bergson: She was the Iron Lady indeed ^_^

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true

[13:44] herman Bergson: Well maybe next week we can develop a more positive view on our political future....

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well we are (hopefully) now moving in that direction

[13:44] herman Bergson: So, unless you have that final world saving remark........

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ......

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:45] herman Bergson: I thank you again for your participation....

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:45] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:45] bergfrau Apfelbaum: it was once again very interesting with you, ty Herman and class!

[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:45] CB Axel: And thank you, class.

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