Thursday, February 11, 2021

901: The co-operation....

 So, what could be a good substitute for the profit and bonus hungry homo economicus is the cooperative economy..


Many cooperatives do not focus on quick profit or the short term but on the longer term and spreading risks. 


Many cooperatives also have close ties with local and regional communities, which fact has historical roots. 


The crux of the matter, however, is that we are dealing here with a form of activity in which both cooperation and competition are involved, 


where public and private interests are not mutually exclusive and where community building and market forces reinforce each other.


Many of the current cooperatives date from the end of the nineteenth century. 


In response to the market dynamics of the time and the associated new risks, workers, farmers and retailers joined forces. 


In fact, this already was a counter-movement against the liberalism of those days with the rich and wealthy on one side and the low paid workers on the other side.


It was a broader movement that not only led to cooperatives, but also to the establishment of political parties and trade unions. 


However, a specific element of the cooperative was that it had to ensure its viability in the market. Management and efficiency, therefore, remained important points. 


Some cooperatives went under, but others still exist, although they have often undergone considerable scaling up. 


In addition, a new wave of voluntary associations emerged since the turn of the millennium, this time in response to the uncertainties arising from the neoliberal era. 


Experts expect this trend to continue for the foreseeable future. However, the new wave is not only based on negative motives, such as avoiding risks. 


Cooperative working also became attractive for positive reasons. For example, a recent report mentions various factors that promote the popularity of a cooperative method. 


Consider the trend that the number of self-employed persons continues to increase. Fewer and fewer professionals want to work under a boss and therefore start their own business.


They can strengthen their position by associating with others without having to give up their independence. 


Also, consider the ecological crisis that is unfolding. This questions classic axioms such as economic growth and the pursuit of large scale companies. 


Also, keep in mind that many forms of services make up an increasing share of employment. Relational and personal elements are involved in this type of work, which naturally requires a cooperative habitus. 


Finally, think of the fact that thanks to digitization we are increasingly interconnected, which stimulates local, national and global cooperation. 


Based on all this, the relevance of cooperative models could be even greater in the future than it was in the past.


This can lead to a whole new perspective of how we want to organize our societies. 


Do we want to continue the world of fattening shareholders and underpaying those who generate profits in the real economy?


or will we begin to understand that this cooperative way of doing economics is much more in line with us as social beings, who are also busy preventing our world from becoming unlivable?


Thank you for your attention again....



MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Gabriel van den Brink:"Ruw Ontwaken uit een Neoliberale Droom",, 2020


The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: sorry if I sound like a politician instead of a philosopher :-)

[13:20] CB Axel: I wish more politicians were philosophers.

[13:20] herman Bergson: That was Plato's idea too CB :-)

[13:20] CB Axel: I knew I liked that guy.

[13:20] CB Axel: :)

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:21] herman Bergson: I must admit that the philosophical level of American politicians is really deplorable most of the time

[13:21] CB Axel nods

[13:22] herman Bergson: Reps wouldn't even understand the meaning of this lecture, I guess

[13:22] oola Neruda: the impeachment is happening right now... and the arguments for him are really LAME

[13:23] herman Bergson: that's another story, oola...let's not go pathetique

[13:23] oola Neruda: sorry...

[13:23] CB Axel: From your mouth to the Senate Republicans' ears.

[13:23] herman Bergson: The basic ide here is cooperative thinking.....

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:24] herman Bergson: not going for the money primarily but going for building....caring for each other

[13:24] CB Axel: You'll never get enough Americans to agree to that. We're too independent.

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as it should be

[13:24] CB Axel: I can see it working in the Netherlands, but not the US.

[13:24] herman Bergson: the goal of a company is not to maximize profits for shareholders....

[13:25] herman Bergson: the goal is to provide all participants with a reasonable

[13:25] herman Bergson: and make a profit to finance this for all participants

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): shareholders don't care about that

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nope

[13:26] CB Axel: Too many people want to sit on their bums and just collect money.

[13:26] herman Bergson: Shareholders are just suppliers of money to make more money...the way it is done, doesn't matter...only THAT it is done

[13:26] herman Bergson: I disagree CB

[13:27] herman Bergson: Most people want to be part of society, participate....don't forget..most people are OK :-)

[13:28] herman Bergson: People want security....that is not just synonymous with money

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess thats the case

[13:29] herman Bergson: In my opinion....people want food on the table, education, good healthcare, a save place to live...which is independent of the amoutn of money they get or want

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but for those things people need money

[13:31] herman Bergson: YEs Beertje....but does it have to be 10.000 dollars a month?

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh yes please:))))

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MORE MORE!

[13:31] herman Bergson: IN a cooperation people share....share the profits to reach such a safe way of living

[13:32] CB Axel: So...communism

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think it will never be that way

[13:32] CB Axel: It would be hard to sell that idea to Americans.

[13:32] herman Bergson: The facts are against you Beertje.....more money doesn't make people happy or change

[13:32] herman Bergson: I know CB

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i know, i was born poor....and i know how it is to be with no money

[13:33] oola Neruda: sane gere

[13:33] oola Neruda: here

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i don't need that much, i was joking

[13:33] herman Bergson: A number of lottery winners  with middle income who won millions, just go on to live their middle income life...

[13:33] theo Velde is online.

[13:33] herman Bergson: THAT is the difference Beertje....poverty!

[13:34] CB Axel: Money changes one thing, and that's anxiety.

[13:34] herman Bergson: Not  to have food onthe table, no acces to good education , no affordable healthcare....that should not be accepted in our world

[13:34] CB Axel: I agree with that.

[13:34] herman Bergson: True CB

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): education is very important, that should be free for everyone

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so true

[13:35] herman Bergson: When you don't need to worry about buying a new refrigerator because the old one fell apart...yes

[13:36] herman Bergson: or your car broke down and you have to fear the repair bill....

[13:36] CB Axel: Or you have to choose between food and medicine.

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:36] herman Bergson: If that worry is can live a free life...but for that you don't need to be a millionaire

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I had to collect and hand in bottles to buy bread

[13:36] herman Bergson: Terrible choice....CB

[13:37] oola Neruda: with children not being in school.... they are not learning properly... and there could easily be a status difference between that lack... and those who go to private schools... the class system in gestation

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): had no fridge and no car:)

[13:38] herman Bergson: As CB said....such ideas are hard to sell in the US.....

[13:38] Laz Dresler is offline.

[13:38] herman Bergson: But in Europe....I don't know....maybe there is some more willingness to listen

[13:38] CB Axel: I hope so.

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): did you know, the people with less money give the most to others?

[13:39] oola Neruda: that is true

[13:39] herman Bergson: The money machine is coming to an markets....people begin to see the foolishness of it....

[13:40] herman Bergson: The GameStop action is just the beginning

[13:40] CB Axel: The NY Times had an article today about how France it being torn apart by American ideas of racism, sexism, and other things.

[13:40] herman Bergson: Do we need American ideas about those subjects....we are racist enough of our own, I guess :-)

[13:42] CB Axel: Stories&pgtype=Homepage

[13:42] herman Bergson: Will have a look at that CB

[13:42] CB Axel: I don't know if you can read that without a subscription, but it's worth a try.

[13:43] oola Neruda: yes... you can

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:43] herman Bergson: hmm..let me check

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes...can read it CB

[13:43] CB Axel: And the problem is that they think the US ideas are too far left.

[13:43] herman Bergson: Funny people those Frenchies :-))

[13:44] oola Neruda: but the cooperatives are usually lefties

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yeah oola there we step is to call them socialists and we are home again ^_^

[13:44] CB Axel: Older people in all cultures tend to dislike change.

[13:44] oola Neruda: right

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nothing wrong with socialisme

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least not the true meaning of it

[13:45] CB Axel: But in the US people equate socialism with communism.  That's wrong, of course.

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly

[13:45] oola Neruda: right

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mix it all up

[13:45] CB Axel: But the schools are controlled by conservatives.

[13:46] CB Axel: Primary schools, anyway.

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's somthing completely different CB

[13:46] herman Bergson: Not in Europe, no....Americans never have experienced it....though  they do a lot of socialist department, police, publi education, healthcare....etc :-))

[13:46] CB Axel: The universities are more leftist.

[13:47] CB Axel: strike

[13:47] CB Axel: I read an article once about how in NY City there was a of bankers.

[13:47] herman Bergson: I guess, when you are a critical thinker, you seem to be a leftist by definition at some places

[13:47] CB Axel: I forget what their complaint was, but they went on strike.

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so

[13:47] CB Axel: but life went on without much notice.

[13:47] herman Bergson: I have heard about that banker strike....nobody noticed....wasn't that the case CB? :-))

[13:48] CB Axel: strike

[13:48] CB Axel: But when the garbage collectors went on the city practically shut down.

[13:48] CB Axel: So, who is important in this world?

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:48] CB Axel: ;Bankers or garbage collectors.

[13:48] CB Axel: ?

[13:48] herman Bergson: Indeed

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): everybody except bankers I guess

[13:48] CB Axel: You'd think they'd have learned a lesson from that, but they haven't.

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well without garbagemen the city becomes a trashy stinking mess really fast

[13:49] CB Axel: NYC is already a trashy, stinking mess. :)

[13:49] CB Axel: But I still love it.

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so i say indeed they are more important

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm i saw something recently on youtube  about it always smelling bad everywhere in NYC

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its a big place but

[13:50] herman Bergson: So we have to go for a world in which the poduction companies are owned by the people who create the production....that is a fair world

[13:50] CB Axel: Right

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes!

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and only produce what isneede

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is needed

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:51] CB Axel: I shop at a grocery that is "employee owned."

[13:51] herman Bergson: yes...a self sustainable economy.....cyclic economy

[13:51] CB Axel: The employees are considered shareholders.

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is the true way indeed

[13:52] herman Bergson: that is in fact a cooperation CB

[13:52] CB Axel: I liked that article you recommended about the donut economy.

[13:52] CB Axel: Yes, but they don't call it that.

[13:52] herman Bergson: No no...because then they would be called socialists :-))

[13:52] CB Axel: Maybe cooperative is a bad thing in the US.

[13:53] oola Neruda: depends upon who you are

[13:53] CB Axel: Or where you live, oola.

[13:53] oola Neruda: yes

[13:53] oola Neruda: exactly

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess it is since they always fight to get profit from everything

[13:53] CB Axel: I know a guy in Oregon who used to juice carrots for a cooperative.

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is there no one from the government who can explain the meaning of socialism in the US and then the REAL mening?

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): including schools and health

[13:53] herman Bergson: yeah...take Arizona for instance :-))

[13:53] herman Bergson: or Texas

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): only the rich shall live and prosper seem to be the mantra

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): over there

[13:54] CB Axel: Beertje, not when the primary schools don't teach it correctly.

[13:54] CB Axel: The old white guys who run the schools teach old white guy history.

[13:54] herman Bergson: It is the neo liberal mantra Bejiita and the base of the Prosperity Evangelicals

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why white guys? socialism isn't about colour

[13:55] oola Neruda: in the south.... it is

[13:55] CB Axel: Old white men run everything. If they say something is communist then it is communist.

[13:55] herman Bergson: What we see is that the old white guys begin to realize that they are the losers and all the others the winners

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): awful

[13:56] CB Axel: But they're not realizing it.

[13:56] CB Axel: That's why there's a trial going on in the Senate right now.

[13:56] herman Bergson: I think they do CB...just look at the Republican Party....

[13:56] CB Axel: They're doing everything they can to hold on to power.

[13:56] herman Bergson: The mess they are in

[13:56] Guitar Stantz is online.

[13:56] oola Neruda: and it is definitely part of the issue but they are not saying it out loud

[13:57] herman Bergson: They say a lot not out loud oola ^_^

[13:57] CB Axel: OK. Maybe they are starting to see it, but they're fighting it tooth and nail.

[13:57] herman Bergson: That they do CB...true

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, refuse to give up

[13:57] CB Axel: Yeah. I think many may be thinking it, but they're afraid to say it out loud.

[13:57] herman Bergson: But it is a pathetic fight....

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they don't have to give up...working together is not giving up anything

[13:58] CB Axel: They're afraid their backers will withdraw money from their campaigns.

[13:58] oola Neruda: they were threatening each other about what the voters will do

[13:58] herman Bergson: Every sane person would say that Beertje....that is why it all looks so insane what is happening

[13:58] CB Axel: They're more concerned with keeping their jobs instead of doing their jobs.

[13:58] CB Axel: *jobs

[13:58] oola Neruda: exactly

[13:59] theo Velde is offline.

[13:59] herman Bergson: That is what strikes me the most CB.....that clinging to their job and status....they do everything for it....see Linsey Graham as master example

[13:59] CB Axel: Please. Must I?

[13:59] CB Axel: lol

[14:00] CB Axel: But even McConnell spoke out against Trump a little bit.

[14:00] herman Bergson: sorry....indeed it might hurt your eyes

[14:00] CB Axel: LOL

[14:00] CB Axel: You're making me lose my appetite. Thank you. I need to diet anyway. LOL

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Lindsey is that the woman who lies a lot?

[14:00] herman Bergson looks at his watch...

[14:00] oola Neruda: green

[14:00] CB Axel: No. That's Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[14:00] herman Bergson: wow I guess we really came close to saving the world today :-))

[14:00] CB Axel: MTG

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a bit at least

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bit

[14:01] herman Bergson: OMG....the lights go on Greene...

[14:01] herman Bergson: what a fruitcake

[14:01] CB Axel: Until we save American education, this country is in bad shape.

[14:02] herman Bergson: I'll keep going on worries :-)

[14:02] CB Axel: She doesn't upset me as much as the thousands who must have voted for her.

[14:02] CB Axel: She is just a symptom of the diseased minds of too many Americans.

[14:02] herman Bergson: yes...a mistery to me....

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just like trumps supporters

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmmpf!

[14:02] oola Neruda: sad

[14:03] CB Axel: So, Professor Pangloss, can you see why I don't think most people are OK? ;)

[14:03] herman Bergson: Let's do it the American way today and end the lecture with a prayer of hope...^_^

[14:03] oola Neruda: lol

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and hope for the best in the end

[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I hope we can turtle a bit....

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[14:03] herman Bergson: God bless THE PHILOSOPHY CLASS ^_^

[14:04] oola Neruda: YES

[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): amen....

[14:04] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...

[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa that we can do before i go back test running my machine, sadly i have found there are bugs in its software

[14:04] CB Axel: I don't believe in prayer, but if it makes you feel better, then OK. God bless the Philosophy Class.

[14:04] oola Neruda: be well... alllof you

[14:04] herman Bergson: lol

[14:04] CB Axel: Dank je, Herman.

[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wow CB

[14:05] CB Axel: And thank you, class. :)

[14:05] oola Neruda: back to the impeachment..

[14:05] herman Bergson: Neither do I CB...but I always find it so amazing to hear how Americans claim god...

[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Dankjewel Herman

[[14:05] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!

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