Thursday, February 18, 2021

903; Subsidiarity....

 In the previous lecture, I introduced you to Johannes Althusius (1557 -1638) and I told you,


that he distinguished five principal types of association, each a combination of the preceding: 


the family, the voluntary corporation, the local community, the province, and lastly the state. 


Besides, that people can form associations because they share the same religious, educational or commercial interests.


As a result, we must see society as a set of associations with an increasing degree of complexity.


Althuisius describes politics as "the art of creating, developing and maintaining under people those conditions which are necessary, essential and homogeneous for living together". 


So it is not so much about the exercise of power, let alone the exercise of power by the state. 


The core remains the sovereignty of the community. Because it is with the community, 


administrators can only exercise their authority in the name of the community. The past four years we have seen something different in, for example, the United States.


This brings us to Althusius's main contribution to political thought, namely the principle of subsidiarity.


The subsidiarity principle is an organizational method or rule in the division of tasks between 'higher' and 'lower' public authorities. 


It generally means that higher authorities should not do anything that can be handled by lower authorities.


According to the proposed subsidiarity principle, the government should only take initiatives 


where individuals and private organizations prove unable to solve the problems independently. 


The principle is based on the autonomy and dignity of the human individual and states that all social institutions, 


from the family to the state and the international order, should serve the human being.

Subsidiarity assumes that human beings are by nature social beings and emphasizes the importance of small and medium-sized social connections such as 


the family, the Church and voluntary organizations as structures that enable the individual to serve society and that the individual and society as a whole connect with each other.

Another important aspect of the subsidiarity principle is "positive subsidiarity". Positive subsidiarity means that communities, institutions and governments must create the social conditions


 in which the individual can develop fully, for example by offering work, good housing, healthcare and the like.


If you take the cooperative organization and this subsidiarity principle together you get a different organization of our society, a more human one, I would say.


It relates to ideas of the circular economy. It is focused on preserving a decent living and protection for everyone.


It is a way to offer a middle ground between, on the one hand, the excesses of capitalism, in which the government abandoned those who could not save themselves economically, 


and, on the other hand, different kinds of totalitarian regimes, in which the individual was completely subject to the state.


Keep in mind, that I am not preaching revolutionary ideas. These ideas are, as you have seen, more than 500 years old.


This leads to the next question: how to find the balance between individual and common interest. 


At this moment the individual interest dominates our society as shown in consumerism and the drive to make as much money as possible at the cost of................


Thank you for your attention again...



MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Gabriel van den Brink:"Ruw Ontwaken uit een Neoliberale Droom",, 2020



The Discussion

[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i have no idea really...

[13:18] herman Bergson: Just consider a society built of autonomous groups....

[13:19] CB Axel: You have to convince the individuals that helping the group is best for everyone including themselves.

[13:19] herman Bergson: in such groups the sovereignty of the people rules....

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the idea sounds fine for sure

[13:19] herman Bergson: Right CB

[13:20] herman Bergson: And these groups...without giving up their sovereignty collaborate with other groups....and so on....

[13:21] herman Bergson: The general goals is always the preservation of the group and collection of groups with respect to creating a decent living and life for everyone

[13:21] CB Axel: That's a big problem in the States. Democrats want the federal government to do more, but Republicans don't want the federal government telling the states what to do.

[13:21] herman Bergson: The goal  never is to generate as much profits and money as possible

[13:22] herman Bergson: It should be bottom up CB....

[13:22] herman Bergson: the lower layers should tell the upper layers how to help them

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not the other way around as is the case now

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wouldn't it breed envy between reviving groups?

[13:22] herman Bergson: top down doesnt work here

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nope!

[13:23] CB Axel: It should, but when state governments are discriminating against minorities and ruining the schools, something has to be done.

[13:23] herman Bergson: there comes the sovereignty of the people into play.....

[13:23] herman Bergson: when the rules misbehave the people should remove them from office

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and that's where the rebels come into view

[13:24] herman Bergson: But we are still in a situation where individuals kling to power....

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:24] CB Axel: The people are too stupid to see it. And the local governments do all they can to make sure children are taught a slanted view of history and science.

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje

[1[13:26] CB Axel: The Republican states' children routinely test poorly on a variety of skills.

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so education is number 1 to do

[13:26] FrannyDJ Dean is offline.

[13:27] herman Bergson: It is a broader issue....we have to get rid of this neoliberalism...this focus on money making as the goal in life

[13:27] CB Axel: It should be, but too many state governments seem to want a poorly educated public.

[13:27] Arabela (aarrabella) is offline.

[13:27] herman Bergson: Is that so CB?

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the priest keeps them stupid and the mayor keeps them poor

[13:27] RaineyDais: perhaps that's government in general.. or anyone in power?

[13:28] CB Axel: They teach creationism instead of evolution. They don't teach them the basics of science. They don't teach the rasicst history of the country.

[13:28] herman Bergson: That doesnt sound like smart then are wasting a lot of intellectual talent that you need for further developments

[13:28] CB Axel: Yes

[13:29] CB Axel: But that's the state of schools in the US.

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they want people to stay dumb so they can do what they like without anyone complaining

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): all for the power and money

[13:29] herman Bergson: They teach creationism, CB? Where?

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the power factor

[13:29] CB Axel: All over the south mostly.

[13:29] herman Bergson: Ihoa, Utah?

[13:30] Laila Schuman: and underneath it all, corporations run things by sending money via lobbyists... to get what the corporation wants... to hell with the people

[13:30] CB Axel: I don't know about Utah.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Well...what I learnt in the past 4 years is at least that the US is not the country I was told it was during my childhood

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think this idea is too fantastic to become reality

[13:32] herman Bergson: the cooperative idea, you mean Beertje?

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a false image

[13:32] CB Axel: It's not the country I thought it was during my childhood, either.

[13:32] Laila Schuman: same here

[13:32] herman Bergson: It is not too fantastic at all I would say....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Teh believe in endless economic growth is an irrationality.....and the economists know

[13:33] herman Bergson: the gap between the Haves and HaveNots is growing...

[13:33] Laila Schuman: think about the hippies... protesting for things.... they believed they could change things

[13:34] herman Bergson: They did change things Laila...

[13:34] RaineyDais: what defines a "have not?"

[13:34] herman Bergson: Change is possible....has always been...

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it just needs to happen

[13:35] CB Axel: Have not = me! LOL

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nut just remain a dream

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol CB

[13:35] herman Bergson: the lower incomes Rainey...the poor....those who haven't that access to the  benefits of their society....e.g healthcare and education

[13:36] RaineyDais: and how do they compare to the majority of the other countries in the world?

[13:36] herman Bergson: Piketty has shown how the wealth of this earths in in the hands of just a few

[13:36] RaineyDais: fair, but my question remains

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and that have to change

[13:37] herman Bergson: It is happening everywhere  Rainey

[13:37] CB Axel: I'm sure our "have nots" are doing better than many people in third world countries, but there is no excuse for the poverty seen in a country as wealthy as the US.

[13:37] Laila Schuman: YES... only a FEW

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true CB

[13:37] RaineyDais: has there not always been poverty?

[13:37] herman Bergson: In the past 30 years the profits of companies have grown immensely....the wages of the workers didn't

[13:37] CB Axel: That's no excuse to not try to eliminate it.

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): problem is in US it is seen as your own fault that ou are poor and you are on your own

[13:37] CB Axel: Always been poverty!

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): noone want to hel u

[13:38] CB Axel rolls her eyes

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): help

[13:39] herman Bergson: IN other words...workers in a factory should benefit from the profits they create....not shareholders

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): solidarity is mostly unknown there it seems its just about managing your own business and take all u can

[13:39] RaineyDais: there has always been poverty... it's sad, but true... my point is that compared to most countries, the "have nots" in the us are doing better than the majority of the "have nots" in most countries

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i get it

[13:40] herman Bergson: It is a relative problem, of course Rainey

[13:40] Laila Schuman: There was a book that came out during the vietnam war... it talked about all the power being in the hands of a few rich people...  rich does not mean good or educated or anything else... just rich.... REPORT FROM IRON MOUNTAIN

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its the status syndrome

[13:40] Laila Schuman: YES

[13:40] CB Axel: The US has enough money that there should be no poverty in the US. We can worry about other countries when we can fix our own problems.

[13:40] herman Bergson: That is one of the big problems.....

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): money = status = i can trample on the ones with low status and say F YOU! to them

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like Mr T did

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): think u are something better because u are rich

[13:41] herman Bergson: The problem with the extreme rich people is that they can influence politics and are not elected by the people

[13:42] RaineyDais: that's a stretch in my opinion, that one can know what another thinks

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Herman

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): another big problem

[13:42] CB Axel: Then judge them by their actions.

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its bribing more or less

[13:42] Laila Schuman: yes

[13:43] herman Bergson: We're still in the neoliberal bubble....nut it is deflating slowly...:-)

[13:44] herman Bergson: If you only look at the total collapse of the Republican Party :-))

[13:45] herman Bergson: It has no ideology anymore....

[13:45] herman Bergson: just the can I keep my job

[13:45] RaineyDais: if the have nots in the us are doing better than the have nots in the majority of the world, and doing better now than ever before (in general the have nots have cars, tvs. access to running water, food) what is the problem?

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes true

[13:46] RaineyDais goes back to reading "how to lose friends and alienate neoliberals

[13:46] CB Axel: Many of the have nots do not have those things. Hence the need for food banks.

[13:47] herman Bergson: Why do you say the poor in te US do better than elsewhere in the world, Rainey. I don't know

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think more of the homeless ones living on the streets among trashcans and rats regarding the have nots

[13:47] RaineyDais: ah

[13:47] RaineyDais: the definition of have nots is more clear now

[13:47] CB Axel: And they may have a TV, but their children are sleeping one filthy mattresses on the floor.

[13:48] Laila Schuman: i've seen the situation of the poor in Peru and South Africa.... they literally have NOTHING

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and not enough food

[13:48] CB Axel: They may have a broken down old car, but they can't afford insurance.

[13:48] RaineyDais: Peru and south Africa are worse then

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:48] herman Bergson: The have nots is the social underclass...those with little education, poor jobs, little access to social benefits fue to their ignorance etc

[13:48] CB Axel: But those are much poorer countries in general.

[13:48] Laila Schuman: yes they are

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no one should have it like that

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(

[13:48] RaineyDais: of course not

[13:48] RaineyDais: you're compassionate

[13:48] RaineyDais: that's good

[13:49] RaineyDais: have you done anything about this?

[13:49] RaineyDais: directly?

[13:49] Laila Schuman: Peru... living in boxes and cartons... one faucet sticking out of the ground for about a thousand people...

[13:49] CB Axel: I vote Democratic and donate to food banks, etc.

[13:49] RaineyDais: donation! that's good!

[13:50] Laila Schuman: Africa... they ran a hose down from the mountain stream and it saved the women having to walk up there to get water every day...

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what have you done yourself Rainy?

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i wish i could make some change but alone hard, donate some money now and then including what i get recycling my PET bottles

[13:50] RaineyDais: donations

[13:50] Laila Schuman: none of them had enough food

[13:50] Laila Schuman: NONE

[13:50] RaineyDais: that is awful

[13:50] RaineyDais: i agree

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(

[13:50] herman Bergson: This is not a matter to be solved by individual is a social problem....a responsibility of society...of all of us together

[13:51] FrannyDJ Dean is online.

[13:51] RaineyDais: if all the individuals take action as individuals how does that differ?

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed if me and (hopefully many others) do the same we make a difference

[13:51] herman Bergson: In the 19th century you had these charity organizations....

[13:51] Laila Schuman: doctors without borders.. is a good group

[13:51] RaineyDais: eleemosynary

[13:51] RaineyDais: very little if no government intervention

[13:51] RaineyDais: the rich built the hospitals

[13:51] RaineyDais: etc

[13:52] herman Bergson: in the twentieth century you had social benefits for the needed provided by the care

[13:52] Laila Schuman: Obama care for one

[13:52] RaineyDais: yes, which in my opinion have a downside

[13:52] herman Bergson: We made progress...:-)

[13:53] herman Bergson: What is the downside Raainey?

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): healthcare was much cheaper in the 20th

[13:53] RaineyDais: social benefits create apathy

[13:53] RaineyDais: can create apathy

[13:53] herman Bergson: that is a myth....

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): why would it?

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no they don't

[13:53] herman Bergson: Nowhere proven

[13:53] RaineyDais: if i can make x number of dollars doing nothing then why work?

[13:53] herman Bergson: To give you an example....

[13:54] herman Bergson: a municipal office scanned all people on social benefits.....

[13:54] Laila Schuman: if you get cancer... it is another story

[13:54] herman Bergson: here in the Netherlands....

[13:55] herman Bergson: they used a computer algorithm that would reveal frauds...

[13:55] CB Axel: Not as much apathy as having no hope.

[13:55] herman Bergson: on 2300 people they found 11  suspected cases...of which were only 2 fraudulent...

[13:56] herman Bergson: The belief that people don't want to get a job because they get social is a myth

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): people have their pride and worth, they want to provide for their own families by working

[13:56] FrannyDJ Dean is offline.

[13:56] herman Bergson: Not participaing in society makes your life so meaningless

[13:56] CB Axel: My computer is having issues. Very laggy.

[13:57] CB Axel: I can  barely type right now

[13:57] herman Bergson: You look a little pale indeed, CB....:-)

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (picks up CBs computer and throws it on the floor) CRASSSHH! There! that should do it!

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Bejiita!

[13:57] Laila Schuman: having others look down on you is really horrible to deal with

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ehhehehe

[13:57] herman Bergson: Indeed Laila

[13:57] RaineyDais: i'm not saying they don't want to... although i can't say what another person thinks, i can only assume... i'm saying that the benefits of not working may outweigh the benefits of working

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): CB you get a new computer from Bejiita:)

[13:58] theo Velde is offline.

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 100 % perfect

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:58] herman Bergson: I understand Rainey....

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:59] FrannyDJ Dean is online.

[13:59] herman Bergson: That is why Reps didnt want  2000 DOLLAR HELP BUT ONLY A 600 DOLLAR HELP FOR COVID VITIMS

[13:59] herman Bergson: OOPS...caps...sorry

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what can you do with 600 dollars in the US?

[14:00] herman Bergson: No idea Beertje:-)

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): me either

[14:00] herman Bergson: Nor with 600euros here :-)

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what are the costs of food?..of houses??

[14:01] Laila Schuman: not a lot

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and is that per person?

[14:01] CB Axel: Don't forget transportation and child care.

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the reps just think "its their own fault they are sick and i dont want to spend anything helping these"

[14:01] herman Bergson: Anyway, it is time to conclude our discussion....:-)

[14:01] Laila Schuman: one week of groceries is easily $100... and that is for two people

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like Trupmps ignorance of the disease

[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and house rent?

[14:02] herman Bergson: As usual we almost saved the world again...:-)

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[14:02] RaineyDais: haha

[14:02] herman Bergson: Thank you all for that....

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well we know what there is to do for sure

[14:02] CB Axel: And medical care for when the poor food, water, and air makes them sick.

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to save it

[14:02] Laila Schuman: rent is incredibly high...even for places that you would not care to live in

[14:02] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....^_^

[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Laila

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well nice again

[14:03] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as usual

[14:03] RaineyDais: thank you herman

[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman, intresting as always:))

[14:03] RaineyDais: loved it!!!

[14:03] herman Bergson: Thank you Rainey

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

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