The history of India is amazing. Its philosophy originated a thousand years earlier that the philosophy of the ancient Greeks, but intellectually it was of the same level. Homo sapiens is mature.
What is so amazing is, that due to the invention of script and writing cultures posses books. With that I mean, thoughts and ideas no longer are transferred orally from generation to generation.
The thoughts, the stories, as we may say the mythology is committed to paper and in India this played a major role. The period of 1500 to 500 BCE is called the Vedas era, named after the sacred books with that name.
By this is meant not one book, but an entire literature, produced in very different times and by many unknown authors, but the recording of which mainly falls within the period mentioned.
However, they contain mythical and religious ideas that are much older. "Veda" means "knowing," that is, religious, theological knowing,
which in the most ancient times may be equated with the sum total of all knowledge found fit for recording. The size of the Veda is six times that of the Bible.
The situation in India is very interesting, not just historically but also in the light of its present situation and this dominant reign of Hinduism, for that goes back more than 3000 years.
By the way, it never may have occurred to you - not to me anyway - but this morning I heard in the news that the moment is imminent, that India will overtake China as the most populated country om earth.
Back to history. Imagine a culture that is dominated and controlled for almost a thousand years by a religion and its priests, there comes a moment some say enough is enough.
And that moment came around 600 BCE, with the rise of Cārvākas, also called Lokayata. Whether the name Cārvākas comes from the eponymous founder of this movement, or has a different origin, is uncertain.
Under this name is summed up a school of thinkers who attack not only Brahmanical religion, Hinduism, but religion as such, and who espouse a marked materialism,
that is, who start from the view that matter is the only thing that exists and that the spiritual activities can be reduced to material ones.
They scoff at religion and priests and reject as metaphysical nonsense any philosophical or religious speculation that goes beyond the material.
We no longer possess the original works of the champions of this Cārvākas doctrine themselves.
Their opinions, however, can be clearly known from numerous quotations in other works. Thus from Brhaspati, the most famous representative of this school of thought, the following verse is related:
"Nothing else is the offerings to the forefathers than a source of gain for the Brahmin priests. They who devised the three Vedas. They are hypocrites, rogues, buffoons. . . " -end-
The teachings of Atman are mere deceit to him. There is no soul. Only matter exists, in the form of the four elements, earth, water, fire and air. The rejection of metaphysics thus forms a sharp contrast to previous Indian thought.
Equally, the ethics of these naysayers also deviate from the prevailing view. Rather, they have no ethics at all, they deny every moral order of the world, and see in the lust of the senses the sole and highest end of man.
At least this is what a number of critics of the 12th century usually say, but there is evidence, that Cārvākas, also named Lokoyata, was not just an absolute hedonism.
It is striking how modern these ancient thinkers can sound. While the science is primitive, and the logic and philosophy can seem limited, on the basis of the scant evidence to us,
nevertheless Cārvākas / Lokayata seems to have embraced the essential of the materialist perspective, which is the ontological theory
that presupposes an intuitive concept of space, and the primary claim of materialism is that the only things that exist are those that occupy space.
And to this day articles are still being published about this materialism from India.
The uncompromising attitude to the creator God/gods, immortality of the soul, rebirth and karmic retribution which is only found in India,
and similar notions are found in the works of many writers. The struggle between reason and faith has been a standing feature in the history of world philosophy.
Thank you for your attention again...
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:23] oola Neruda: excellent
[13:23] herman Bergson: Just imagine....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:24] herman Bergson: more than three thousand years ago some people were fed up with religion as Richard Dawkins is today....nothing has changed in that respect
[13:24] oola Neruda: yet, in India they did have gods... gave them names and roles.... did that happen simultaneously or separately
[13:25] herman Bergson: As far as I know the Hindu gods are all derived from mythological stories, like the Greek gods like Zeus and Athene were in their time
[13:25] herman Bergson: But I have no detailed knowledge of Hinduism....
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well there are a lot of gods for sure
[13:26] herman Bergson: Unless you are a cultural anthropologist I think studying it is a waist of time :-)
[13:26] oola Neruda: so, a symbol rather than a "thing"
[13:27] oola Neruda: .
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what i know is the word avatar comes from the name of their visualisations like for ex shiva with lots of arms, thats her avatar
[13:27] herman Bergson: what do you mean oola?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and that have then moved into the VR space including in here
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): other then that im no hinduism expert really
[13:27] oola Neruda: ?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): know a bit here and there but
[13:28] herman Bergson: ah yes...that word avatar....comes from there
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when nu see a statue of shiva u see her avatar
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you
[13:28] herman Bergson: But what we see in this history is that eternal fight between reason and artionality on the one hand and faith and religion on the other hand
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how it works and thus it was the obvious word / term to use for our virtual representations
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same idea but in a more modern way
[13:29] oola Neruda: that the "god" was an explanation rather than something that requires praise and obedience?
[13:29] herman Bergson: We are all gods here :-)
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol well u can say that
[13:30] herman Bergson: If there is a religion there are rules of the religion you have to obey, I guess , oola
[13:30] herman Bergson: What rules Hinuism has...I don't know
[13:31] herman Bergson: Ohh...they may not slaughter those cows
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): HOLY COW!
[13:31] oola Neruda: but is it a religion.... or a convenient means of creating symbols for whatever
[13:31] herman Bergson: right Bejiita ^_^
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i guess THAT is what that expression comes from!
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its origin
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:32] herman Bergson: Hinduisme, oola? I assume it is regarded to be a religion...for it has thousands of gods to pray to
[13:32] oola Neruda: listens
[13:32] herman Bergson: Who knows, Bejiita :-))
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well no other place has holy cows so
[13:33] herman Bergson: check it out in Wikipedia, oola, there is more info about the subject than in my brain :-))
[13:33] oola Neruda: ok
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i remember i first heard it as a kid while watching that old batman and robin series from the 60s where all Robins different expressions are HOLY this and that!
[13:34] herman Bergson: The point here is that a culture is dominated by some religion and that the opposition to it are outspoken materialists....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:35] herman Bergson: The most interesting historical observation is that not a singel book exists written by a Carvakas author...all disappeared in the 12th Century CE
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ow :(
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:36] oola Neruda: what is Carvakas
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the materialist up-risers in India
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): never heard of them either before
[13:36] herman Bergson: Caravakas is the name of the Indian materialist philosophy...also known as Lokayata
[13:37] herman Bergson: I still found numerous articles on the subject written by current scholars, mainly from India
[13:38] herman Bergson: Materialism as an ontology still is a hot issue today
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I have to go, sorry, have a nice evening
[13:38] herman Bergson: Be well Beertje
[13:38] oola Neruda: vw qwll Vwwerjw
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)))
[13:38] oola Neruda: be well Geertje
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont) is offline.
[13:39] oola Neruda: oh deatr
[13:39] oola Neruda: kldf;klfj;lkf;ks
[13:39] herman Bergson: you shifted one key to the left oola ^_^
[13:39] oola Neruda: i mean well
[13:40] herman Bergson: Is like on the cello...you have to position your hand at the exact spot otherwise you are out of tune :-)
[13:40] herman Bergson: Happens :-)
[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: I am sure that Beertje knows who was meant. Oola :-)
[13:40] herman Bergson: Sure...
[13:40] oola Neruda: hope so
[13:41] herman Bergson: No worries about that
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or while programming in which case there will be bugs!
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:41] oola Neruda: It seems to me that there are many other religions in India...
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa they have a few as i get it even if hinduism is their largest
[13:41] herman Bergson: A minority is is islamic
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:41] herman Bergson: they are hated by the Hindi
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the sikhs are islam right?
[13:42] herman Bergson: In 1947 all muslims were chased out of India into what now is Pakistan
[13:42] herman Bergson: I don't know Bejiita
[13:42] oola Neruda: there is a lot of poetry rout there .... i used to know a number of the names of the Gods... .but am drawing a blank right now
[13:43] herman Bergson: Shiva seems to be the big one
[13:43] oola Neruda: Ramish.... might be one
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:44] herman Bergson: For a materialist...all fairytale figures :-)
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that i can make cool statues of in my 3d printer
[13:44] oola Neruda: and cannot recall the name of the woman who believed that she was to be the wife of... one of them... and who danced naked everywhere she went... in his honor
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have some blue transparent filament i think woulddo great on shiva
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): + add some LED lights
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:45] herman Bergson: Ohhh I'd like to know that name too oola ^_^
[13:45] oola Neruda: wrote songs and poems about him
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and viola a cool desktop lamp
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok
[13:45] herman Bergson: I only know the word Kamasutra ^_^
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa thats a classic although ud need to be quite acrobatic for many of those
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:46] herman Bergson: But that is another philosophy :-))
[13:46] oola Neruda: smiles....wink
[13:46] herman Bergson: Ok...guess we have answered all question...unless you stillhave one left
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i saw one position and i thought ok i might be able to have sex in that pose for... 5 seconds mayebee
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): crazy classics
[13:47] oola Neruda: wish I could remembe all that I forgot on this front
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki and now
[13:47] oola Neruda: used to know a lot of it
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:47] herman Bergson: It is all in Wikipedia oola....simple
[13:48] oola Neruda: Mirabai?
[13:48] herman Bergson: why stor it in your head while it is there for free? ^_^
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:48] oola Neruda: obviously, the storage is not working
[13:48] herman Bergson: ok...
[13:48] herman Bergson: thank you all again....
[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed......
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