When you look at Carvaka / Lokayata materialism and you recall the verse I quoted in the previous lecture, it made me think about cultural differences. Let me repeat that verse first:
"Nothing else is the offerings to the forefathers than a source of gain for the Brahmin priests. They who devised the three Vedas. They are hypocrites, rogues, buffoons. . . " -end-
You get the impression, that the denial of the Otherworld, which automatically leads to a materialist point of view, and suppression of free thought by a Bhramanin priest caste, was one of the main causes behind this materialism.
There are striking similarities between Carvakas and ancient Greek philosophy. One is the belief that everything was made of four elements, air, water, fire and earth. The second is that the only thing that exists is matter.
Yet there is a huge difference. An ancient Greek materialist philosopher we know, is Demokritos (c. 460 - 370 BCE). There is one resemblance with the Indian situation.
Little of his work has survived through history just like all Lokayata works have disappeared.What we know is mainly from quotations by other philosophers. Aristotle was an admirer of Demokritos philosophy, so he quotes him.
Furthermore we see, that the writings of Aristotle and also his teacher Plato have been preserved in large amounts. Guess why.... Simply because the growing catholic church in the first 500 years BC liked Plato and Aristotle. Thence, their works were diligently copied and copied and distributed.
But what struck me was, that I realized that although this Indian materialism may certainly have been a kind of revolt against the dominating religion, this is not the case with the philosophy of Demokritos.
I get the feeling that his attitude was primarily a 'scientific' attitude, a real interest to analyze and explain reality.
This approach of reality, what we now would call 'physics' has always remained the leading principle in Western thought despite of a religion that has tried to suppress this attitude for centuries and yet materialism has never disappeared.
According to Demokritos, the universe at its fundamental level consisted of indivisible atoms in constant motion in an infinite void. The word atom is derived from the Greek word 'atomos', which means individsible.
Material objects are temporary compositions of these atoms. They arise when the atoms come together and are destroyed when they scatter under the influence of natural forces, while the atoms themselves are eternal and indestructible.
Atoms, while they could be shared geometrically, only matter containing spaces, literally parts of the void between the atoms, can be shared physically.
An atom itself cannot be physically divided because it is wholly solid, the void is completely excluded, and thus an atom is not divisible.
Let's play a bit with a mind-boggling problem, which the Greeks also realized as a consequence of this atomism. Nice to think about on the weekend. The atoms are in constant motion according to Demokritos.
They need empty space for that. But what if you remove all those atoms from that space? It is clear that those atoms exist. They have expansiveness, but absolutely empty space? Can it exist? What IS if there is nothing?
Another consequence of this materialism is that all motion is caused, so everything is cause and effect.
This introduces the problem of determinism and, further down the horizon, the problem of free will, but I'll get to that later. These are just some initial ideas to think about.
Thank you for your attention again....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
[13:18] Al Michigan: but how did he know?
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well you CAN spit atoms. With a particle accelerator
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or radioactive decay333
[13:18] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita, but that is what we know now
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however then the element will turn into something else so an atom is still the smallest part of any element
[13:19] Al Michigan: how did he ever came up with this idea off atoms, moving and all
[13:19] Jane Fossett: And now most think 'empty' space is full of emerging particles
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed they did not have LHC or nuclear reactors back then
[13:19] herman Bergson: I love the ontological problem of empty space :-)
[13:19] Jane Fossett: haha\
[13:19] Al Michigan: what you mean with that mr bergson?
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who would remove all the atoms??????
[13:20] herman Bergson: But Leibniz and later einstein defined it away....
[13:20] herman Bergson: empty space is the relation between objects....it is ontologically not a "thing"
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what is interesting is that the practice of alchemy was however not too far off but they just did not know how to pull it off. with these machines we have today we however CAN turn lead into gold just not in very large quentities. its called transmutation
[13:20] Al Michigan: but why is it then a problem?
[13:21] herman Bergson: What problem do you mean Al?
[13:21] Jane Fossett: the Greeks had a antikythera particle accelerator mechanism
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats not a particle accelerator however it IS as i get it a VERY early computer
[13:22] Al Michigan: I love the ontological problem of empty space :-) ... i do notunderstandthis
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i would say so
[13:22] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:22] herman Bergson: Ok...let me explain.....
[13:22] herman Bergson: as a materialist you say that you know what exists.....
[13:22] herman Bergson: matter...
[13:23] Al Michigan: ok
[13:23] herman Bergson: that is...things that take space
[13:23] Al Michigan: ah...
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:23] herman Bergson: they are expanded....
[13:23] herman Bergson: but these expanded objects have to be somewhere.....
[13:23] Al Michigan: in that definition , empty space has no matter, so how can it exist?
[13:24] herman Bergson: As Demokritos already realized..they need room to move around....
[13:24] Jane Fossett: if I diet and lose 10 pund am I still fat?
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well they fill my entire home. computers 3d printers, junk ect, my mom says it looks like a factory at my place!
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:24] herman Bergson: But this room to move around in....does that exist....???
[13:24] Al Michigan: yeah!
[13:24] Al Michigan: indeed
[13:25] Al Michigan: i understand now
[13:25] Al Michigan: it isno matter
[13:25] herman Bergson: it is the same question as....Where does the universe exist?
[13:25] Al Michigan: so it does not excist,...yet...
[13:25] herman Bergson: In what space?
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:25] herman Bergson: It is what JAne said....
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its riding on the back of a turtle!
[13:25] herman Bergson: and what Parmenides said....
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): classic
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:26] herman Bergson: There is no empty space....
[13:26] herman Bergson: that is why they search for this dark matter in the universe
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well they have to find why galaxies don't fall apart as they spin
[13:26] herman Bergson: but in fact....our way of thinking isn't capable of answering this question....
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that was the start of dark matter theory
[13:27] herman Bergson: we are primates living in a closed world of space and time and causality....
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but both CERN and NASA are getting skeptical. dark matter is like a place holder to get the math correct
[13:27] Jane Fossett: without time there is no causality
[13:27] herman Bergson: and that arent the tools to deal with such weird problems
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but it eats everything near it
[13:28] Al Michigan: but only if it exists...
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it might be something completely different at play that will need to take the place of the darkmatter placeholder
[13:28] Jane Fossett: math is what unites it all
[13:28] herman Bergson: oh sorry...Jane...forgot to mention time :-)
[13:28] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:28] Al Michigan: it is i thingk just as with the big bang, that no seems to have never happened in the first place!!
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): LHC have not seen it. no other accelerator say for ex RHIC neither and no space telescope
[13:29] herman Bergson: That statement isn't a big bang to me Al :-)))
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i still ask who would be the entity that does away with all teh atoms
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have been able to detect dark matter (it would manifest itself as matter missing in a particle detector since it cant be directly beasured but no missing mass have been seen so far)
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and leaves nothing
[13:29] herman Bergson: Ahh...In a vaccuum, Gemma
[13:29] Al Michigan: indeed, mr bergson, it was in all the papers!!!
[13:30] herman Bergson: there is an empty space...but ontologically....IS there SOMETHING
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): radiation
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats not matter
[13:30] herman Bergson: there is....emptyness ...we have a word for it
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and vacuum = nothing
[13:30] Jane Fossett: yes, there is no 'empty' space
[13:31] herman Bergson: If you take into account all those particles that come from the sun and fly through us all day....
[13:31] Jane Fossett: the void is frothing with particles in-and-out of being
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well there are atoms of gas ect scattered around but distance between is very far so space is almost at least an absolute vacuum mostly
[13:32] Al Michigan: but,... if everything is energy, atoms are we formally energy, since at 0 degrees Kelvin everything falls apart,.. meaning that empty space actually does not excist, unless it is 0 dgree Kelvin,and thatis no where, so there is no empty space,if you look at this from this point off few,because the moment you can meassure kelvin temperature, there is mass.
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with stars planets and meteorites here and there
[13:32] herman Bergson: That remains a question Bejiita....the DISTANCE between atoms....what do we find there????
[13:32] herman Bergson: emptyness?
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how much matter density there is
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or whatever
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): james webb could measure it or ISS
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if they have a such instrument
[13:33] herman Bergson: Well...I can't answer all this questions and solve all these problems....
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but that measure would only be just where they are located
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): measure
[13:33] Jane Fossett: and for nearly all matter there is antimatter?
[13:33] herman Bergson: but it is good to see that it is not all simply black and white, also not when you assume materialism is the right ontology
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i wish i had paid better attention to Physics when i studied it
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but antimatter don't exist other then in accelerators, man made, entire universe is made of matter otherwise we would see massive anhillation explosions in space
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats what LHCb is trying to find out why matter prevails
[13:34] herman Bergson: I wish I had paid better attention to maths Gemma :-)
[13:34] Al Michigan: yeah, causality is no causation, it do not see it proven dark matter even exists
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause there should in theory have been equal amounts at big bang
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thus NOTHING should really exist after big bang but matter won
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thus we exist and the universe
[13:35] Al Michigan: but there was no big bang!
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well or whatever started it all
[13:35] Jane Fossett: yes it does look like matter won :-)
[13:35] herman Bergson: There is a cartoon on the wall
[13:35] herman Bergson: to my left...
[13:35] herman Bergson: one is about nothingness.....
[13:36] herman Bergson: but then...REAL nothingness :-))
[13:36] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:36] herman Bergson: So..I guess you have enough to think of now :-)
[13:36] herman Bergson: Unless you have still a question...?
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh no
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too many already
[13:37] herman Bergson: Good :-))
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:37] herman Bergson: Thank you all again......
[13:37] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[1[13:37] Al Michigan: why do ppl think there has to be empty space between objects or particles?
[13:37] Jane Fossett: enough to consider. Thank you!
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): again really nice
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good weekend all
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa happy weekend
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:38] herman Bergson: if there wasn't, Al the world would be one big solid rock in space
[13:38] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki and now?
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
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