But explain to me why religious ideas are good and opposite ideas are bad. Take Epikuros for instance. Regarding his idea about the goal of life, he says nothing else but what every organism on this planet does: avoid pain, seek pleasure.
And what do opponents with this basic biological conclusion about behavior of almost all organisms on this planet? They inflate this observation and claim that Epikuros sees the extreme pursuit of lust and pleasure as the highest good. In other words, do your best to describe the person you disagree with as badly as possible.
Nowadays we call it polarization. Current politics in the US are a good example: decent politicians are depicted as marxists, socialists, communists, pedophiles, baby murderers, blood thirsty satanists. You name it, we've got it.
We think that this is a bad aberration of our time. Forget it. It is of all times. Epikuros was described as a despicable, immoral voluptuary, who propagated immoral behavior and the pursuit of all lusts.
Yet the materialism of Epikuros lived on for centuries and found a brilliant spokesman and poet in Lucretius, who lived from 99 to 55 BCE. That is about a 200 years after Epikuros! It means that the writings of Epikuros may still have been around in those days.
What Lucretius has made immortal is his poem "De Rerum Natura" - "On the Nature of Things". He, however, is , like Epikuros, honoured by the existence of outrageous attacks from his opponents.
One of his fiercest opponents was Saint Jerome (347 - 420), a Christian priest, confessor, theologian, and historian. He is best known for his translation of the Bible into Latin, the translation that became known as the Vulgate, and his commentaries on the whole Bible.
Make a note: that is more than 300 years after Lucretius. That means, materialism was still around in those days probably.
And here it becomes interesting if you look at the years. It may have been the case that this Jerome knew about "De Rerum Natura". Maybe he even had read it. But then it disappeared from the public domain for more than a thousand years.
Maybe you remember that we talked about the Renaissance and its interest in the Ancient texts in our project "A World full of Patterns". Then I told you that people started to dig for old manuscripts in the libraries of the old monasteries. And one man, Poggio Bracciolini, discovered in an obscure German monastery in 1417 a copy of "De Rerum Natura".
The holy man, Saint Jerome, got upset by Lucretius. That Lucretius was indeed an enemy of the 'holy' is undeniable. In his poem, his hostility to religion is evident.
Throughout it he mocks supernatural explanations and endeavors to find naturalistic accounts of many naturally occurring phenomena. He rejects religious accounts both of the origins of the universe and of inherent mind or purpose in nature.
In "De Rerum Natura" he describes the atomic theory of Epikuros, in which the universe is conceived as consisting of atoms and the void. He identifies the soul as composed of atoms and describes its dissolution on the death of the body.
He talks about epistemological issues, the origin of the world and the dawn of civilization and finally he discusses various natural phenomena, including lightning, volcanoes, earthquakes and magnets.
Lucretius was a devoted admirer of Epicurus and therefore despised by the catholic church. Let me finish this lecture with Lucretius' own words, in which he describes Epikuros.
When human life lay foul for all to see
upon the earth, crushed by the burden of religion,
religion which from heaven’s firmament
displayed its face, its ghastly countenance,
lowering above mankind, the first who dared
raise mortal eyes against it, first to take
his stand against it, WAS A MAN OF GREECE.
He was not cowed by fables of the gods
or thunderbolts or heaven’s threatening roar,
but they the more spurred on his ardent soul
Yearning to be the first to break apart
The bolts of nature’s gates and throw them open.
Thank you for your attention....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
R.G. Brown/J. Layman, "Materialism", Routledge (2019)
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
[13:16] Jane Fossett: :-)
[[13:17] Al Michigan: but...
[13:17] herman Bergson: And from then on....1417 materialism was back on the stage....
[13:18] Jane Fossett: John Travolta was... "A MAN OF GREASE"
[13:18] herman Bergson: We find it in the ideas of Leibniz with his monads for instance
[13:18] Al Michigan: Life was hard, God promised relief, noGod no relief, no counterbalance for suffering
[13:18] herman Bergson smiles at Jane
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:19] Al Michigan: what is a monad?
[13:19] herman Bergson: like an atom
[13:19] Dings (dings.digital): Lucretius claims the opposite: relief without gods
[13:19] herman Bergson: He does indeed
[13:19] Al Michigan: I guess he was not worried about what would be on the tafel, in the evening to eat.....
[13:20] Al Michigan: tafel = table
[13:20] herman Bergson: What got me was the observation that from Epikuros till Lucretius the materialist world view persisted through time.
[13:21] Al Michigan: But if over half off your kids had died, and youwife as well, being left with 3 kids you started toi love,.... and then not have food,.....
[13:21] herman Bergson: And that is was surpressed by the catholic church for a thousand years
[13:21] Dings (dings.digital): that was a fate very well known in antiquity
[13:22] Al Michigan: Yes but see...
[13:22] Jane Fossett: Science and Math are the continuation
[13:22] herman Bergson: You mean of the materialist worldview, Jane?
[13:22] Dings (dings.digital): Maybe Lucretius would have had more in common with Jesus than with Jerome
[13:23] herman Bergson: This view was picked up in the Renaissance indeed
[13:23] Jane Fossett: yes; Religion was the antithesis\
[13:23] Al Michigan: like 500 years ago, ppl build churches with immensely thick walls so generation after generation, they would speak about the promise off God,: if you work hard, over time, the it would welcome better, ... and thatwas true! So no Gods, i guees our children would still , mostly die as aninfant.
[13:23] herman Bergson: What makes me wonder is how religions often try to block and obstruct the development and growth of knowledge
[13:24] Jane Fossett: and vote Republican :-)
[13:24] Al Michigan: inmyhumble opnion, science is there because off the church.
[13:24] Jane Fossett: I disagree with that view
[13:25] herman Bergson: of course....
[13:25] Al Michigan: and I do not see what republicans have to do with it.
[13:25] herman Bergson: Let me give you another example.....
[13:25] Jane Fossett: (nothing to do with it :-) )
[13:25] herman Bergson: till about 1100 the Arabs ware the masters in mathematics and astronomy
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): science is here because we want facts, organisations like NASA CERN and Fermilab would have popped up still even without the church
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause we want to know
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how things truly work
[13:26] herman Bergson: With the advent of Islam from 700 on all science3s was killed and surpressed....
[13:26] Jane Fossett: fewer people would be burned at the stake
[13:26] herman Bergson: after this moment in history the arabs didn't achieve anything significant in scienc3 anymore
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and now it happens again in say afghanistan, back to stoneage esp for women
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): really sad :(
[13:27] herman Bergson: Here again a religion obstructs the growth of knowledge
[13:27] Al Michigan: yeah, adolf hitler was so religious, hew killed 6 million jews. right?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): evil won+
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): despite all efforts
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:27] herman Bergson: Like the catholic church tried to stifle Galileo and Kepler
[13:27] Al Michigan: but islamis different!
[13:28] Jane Fossett: Islam is different?
[13:28] Al Michigan: the islam says:
[13:28] herman Bergson: I disagree...you see the same historical process there are with other religions
[13:28] herman Bergson: Like Hinduism killed all materialism
[13:29] herman Bergson: An interesting battle though human history between belief and knowledge
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): problem with islam is all extremists, terrorists/sucide bombers
[13:29] Jane Fossett: yes that's it
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the base islam has none of that as i get it
[13:29] Dings (dings.digital): Yeah, what happened to the church after 300 or so? suddenly strange dogmatics ruled, very different from what early christians believed
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its the extremists who destroy it
[13:29] Jane Fossett: Belief vs Knowledge
[13:30] Al Michigan: yeah islam sees the fulfillment off live not in productivity, but in becoming a good human being, that tries to honor God, so beautifully, that other gods, or..(?) would say to themselves: who-o-o-wlook what a wonderfull creations these creation is: Look how grateful he is to his Creator.
[13:30] herman Bergson: It shows how homo sapiens still is a simple minded individual that rather lives with clear answers and certainty than questions
[13:30] Dings (dings.digital): and with politics :)
[13:30] Jane Fossett: We don't know what the original christians knew
[13:30] Dings (dings.digital): they certainly did not believe what jerome and augustinus were saying
[13:31] herman Bergson: The problem is when a religion gets adopted by the ruling class
[13:31] Jane Fossett: nop idea
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes then we have real problems, like in iran since 1979 and mybee even before this
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and even in US
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): IN GOD WE TRUST!
[13:31] Jane Fossett: Constantine was the REAL FATHER OF CHRISTIANITY
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): politics + religion dont mix
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a disaster
[13:32] herman Bergson: When a religion becomes a state religion hell breaks loose for people with other convictions
[13:32] Jane Fossett: (sorry caps)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or politics + religion = oppression
[13:32] Al Michigan: yeah like with fascism!
[13:32] Al Michigan: or like the Antifa
[13:32] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a
[13:32] Dings (dings.digital): exactly. religion and morality are to subtle for politics
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a
[13:32] herman Bergson: repression is the consequence....
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly DIngs
[13:32] herman Bergson: Like it also was when communism became the state religion in eastern europe
[13:33] Al Michigan: yeah
[13:33] Jane Fossett: Antifa has little to do with this
[13:33] Al Michigan: it acts like the violent arm off the democrates, like the SA acted for hitlerin the pre 1934 area
[13:33] herman Bergson: crap, Al...
[13:34] Al Michigan: that has antifa to do with it.
[13:34] herman Bergson: real BS what you say....
[13:34] Al Michigan: hihihi
[13:34] Al Michigan: wish you was right mr Bergson
[13:34] Jane Fossett: I think that's an off-point issue
[13:35] herman Bergson: You better come with clear evidence for your statements first, Al....facts....your homework for next week
[13:35] herman Bergson: It is Jane
[13:35] Al Michigan: no problem,hihihi
[13:35] herman Bergson: Deal, Al
[13:35] Al Michigan: :-)
[13:35] Al Michigan: yeah it is a deal
[13:36] herman Bergson: What we have seen so far is the development of materialism through the ages tillthe Renaissance...
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I have no good insights in antifa, i mostly remember wheh i was a kid i saw a lot of tags around my area "Antifa smash facism"
[13:36] herman Bergson: it is a constant opposition of people against religious ideas and fairytales regarding reality....beginning 500 BCE in India
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): spraued here and there
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but not seeing these since 20 years maybee
[13:37] herman Bergson: and it always stayed in the philosophical siscourse through Democrites, epikuros, Lucratius
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): facism is bad so are they good or bad gous?
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): guys
[13:38] Jane Fossett: Isn't the development of logic and fact a product of the Enlightenment?
[13:38] herman Bergson: We'' see what the future will bring now that De rerum Natura has become public domain again :-)
[13:39] herman Bergson: Eventually yes...
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:39] Jane Fossett: a late result of the Renaissance?
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:39] Dings (dings.digital): there was logic in western and indian antiquity, too
[13:39] herman Bergson: It already started in the Renaissance
[13:39] Jane Fossett: yes agree
[13:40] herman Bergson: But during the enlightment materials was mentione d explicitely again
[13:40] herman Bergson: and the grip of the church on science weakend
[13:40] herman Bergson: But we'll get to that in coming lectures
[13:41] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:41] Rebecca (rebecca.rozen) is offline.
[13:41] herman Bergson: So, thank you allagain for your participation :_0
[13:41] Dings (dings.digital): thank you
[13:41] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank yiou Herman
[13:41] Jane Fossett: Thanks!
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:41] herman Bergson: I wish you all a pleasant weekend and nice weather :-)
[13:42] Dings (dings.digital): real ,material nice weather :)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa
[13:42] herman Bergson: Indeed Dings :-)
[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class
[13:42] Al Michigan: yeah it was a great lecture
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice as usual
[13:42] herman Bergson: I miss oola, btw...
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more interesting stuff
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shes not here
[13:43] herman Bergson: no...
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