Welcome again. I am happy to see you.We are heading for the fall. A perfect time to resume our studies. Most of the time I succeeded in finishing a project at the start of July.
This time the subject "Materialism" was too extensive, so we have to continue this project. It is absolutely not a trivial subject. And there is more. Materialism is an important subject nowadays.
One of the reasons may be, that we divide our thinking into knowledge and belief. At the knowledge side we find science and at the belief side we find all kinds of religions and similar belief systems.
What we also see is that there is a relation between the growing influence of science (and education) and a growing decline of religions. Of course science is closely related to the material world and laws of nature. That is where you find the materialists.
There is a silent struggle going on between materialism and religious and similar beliefs. In fact, this battle is very topical. My daily newspaper, which has its roots in the protestant tradition
and thence pays some more attention to christian issues than other national newspapers, is a good example. I introduced this theme "Materialism" on September 5 of 2022.
In the first lecture I referred to an article in my newspaper: "Why Materialism Is A Dead-End" by Bernardo Kastrup. Last July 7, almost a year later, I read again an article in my newspaper
with the headline: Philosopher Bernardo Kastrup considers materialism to be utter nonsense. "Reality consists of experiences". While reading the article I thought....wait a minute...I know that name.
You can all reread it beginning with the first introductory lecture on "Materialism" I posted September 7, 2022. There he was again: Bernardo Kastrup.
And again he has really specific ideas about materialism. To quote from the article: --quote- "What is the nature of the universe? Most people will assume that the universe consists of matter: physical particles that can be divided into smaller particles such as molecules and atoms.
According to philosopher and computer scientist Bernardo Kastrup (48), it is time to replace that idea. Not matter, but consciousness is the ground of reality. And according to Kastrup, materialism is not only logically indefensible, it also depresses us."
This means that it is quite possible that here standing in front of you is the most depressed man in the universe, for he is a hard core materialist, who prefers to live in a FACT based world instead of a world based on fairy tales.
Let me finish this lecture with a quote from the philosopher Kastrup himself, and tell me if you can make sense of it. I can be of some help, if you like.
-QUOTE- “What do we know before making theories and concepts? We know that consciousness exists, that's where it starts. In order to know something, it must already be part of your consciousness.
Consciousness – or subjectivity – is the only aspect of nature that precedes the theoretical. It exists, it is the ground, the only given we have.
Things outside of consciousness are, by definition, theoretical abstractions. We can assume that they exist, but direct knowledge is impossible. -END QUOTE-
Thank you for your attention again.... Let's resume our project.
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
The Discussion
[13:16] herman Bergson: I really wonder if you can make sense of this quote...
[13:16] Max Chatnoir: What does he think is the functional unit of Consciousness?
[13:17] herman Bergson: It is a refutation of everything I have been telling you so far, it seems :-))
[13:17] herman Bergson: yes Max.....
[13:18] herman Bergson: Let's take one sentence,,,,, and analyze it.......
[13:18] herman Bergson: "We know that consciousness exists, that's where it starts. "
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how do we know?
[13:18] herman Bergson: What he says is we KNOW that something exists...in this case consciousness
[13:19] herman Bergson: Right, Beertje....if you do not need consciousness to know that consciousness exists, what kind of faculty is this KNOWING?
[13:20] herman Bergson: Is there on the one hand a faculty called to KNOW and another to identify consciousness??
[13:20] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): This reminds me of the strange loops that hofstrader talked about. how consciousness arises and how you need to be conscious to know it exists
[13:21] herman Bergson: What I mean to show you is that it is so easy to string words into sentences and suggest that you really SAY something....
[13:21] herman Bergson: Indeed Roy....good example
[13:21] herman Bergson: It reminds me what I said in the first lecture of this project....
[13:22] Max Chatnoir: What's the difference between consciousness and perception.
[13:22] Max Chatnoir: ?
[13:22] herman Bergson: We try to understand thought and thinking...the only tool we have for that task is thinking.....
[13:23] herman Bergson: A moment Max....good point....
[13:23] herman Bergson: I always have had the feeling that we try to measure the length of a ruler we hold in our hand with the ruler we hold in our hand....
[13:23] herman Bergson: consciousness and perception.......
[13:24] herman Bergson: what perception is we all understand.....the sensory input we experience as biological organisms.....
[13:24] herman Bergson: processed by the brain and so on.....
[13:25] Max Chatnoir: And how does consciousness emerge from that?
[13:25] herman Bergson: but here is the problem.......we have this word 'consciousness'
[13:25] herman Bergson: Right Max....
[13:25] herman Bergson: We have this word......
[13:25] herman Bergson: and we are used to assume that a word has a reference.....
[13:26] herman Bergson: The word Max refers to the person over there, the word chair refers to the object you are sitting on
[13:26] herman Bergson: looks all very simple.....
[13:27] herman Bergson: so when we use the word "consciousness" it refers to......?????????????
[13:27] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): awareness of self and thought ?
[13:27] herman Bergson: The word suggest that there is something....and indeed that is what we experience....
[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes Roy....we move to the term awareness
[13:28] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hmm it relates to life. not dead, but alive. feel, think.. etc .. no?
[13:28] herman Bergson: the problem is, you like to think of consciousness as some single coherent something....
[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Bergie..it is all in there.....
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: I think that consciousness requires some kind of interactivity.
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): to be awake
[13:29] herman Bergson: The problem with the idea that there is in the first place consciousness is what Max already said.....where does it come from? Matter???
[13:30] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): I think its more than being alive. does a plant have consciousness.. I think it requires self awareness of self (I) and of of your own thought process (meta cognition)
[13:30] herman Bergson: That is not what a man like Kastrup likes to conclude....
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: Sunflowers follow the sun. Is that consciousness?
[13:31] herman Bergson: I agree Roy but there are even some people that claim that plants have some level of consciousness too
[13:31] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): It is hard to measure something that is hard to define I suppose
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): trees communicate with each other
[[13:31] herman Bergson: My pont is....we have no idea what consciousness exactly is
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: I don't think there is a hard line between simple (whatever that is) perception and consciousness or thinking.
[13:32] herman Bergson: it is a word....a feature that emerges from processes in a biological organism
[13:33] herman Bergson: The point is, that our language organizes what we call reality, Max
[13:33] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): Sometimes I wonder about true AI as Hofstrader did , for if consciousness arises from physical laws , electrochemical laws of neurons in our brain what stops consciousness from arising in machines that follow the same laws of physics
[13:33] herman Bergson: That is in fact what science does and thus formulates a paradigm
[13:33] Max Chatnoir: The transition between simple response to stimuli and cognition involves some level of complexity.
[13:34] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): Theres something missing in the middle that I don't think anyone understands
[13:34] herman Bergson: The same applies to the concept of LIFE, Roy.....
[13:35] herman Bergson: Put all the materials in a test tube and start shaking....
[13:35] herman Bergson: everything is there, proteins amino acids and so on......and nothing happens
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there will be no life in that tube
[13:35] herman Bergson: We have no idea what life is
[13:35] herman Bergson: no Beertje
[13:36] bergfrau Apfelbaum: there is also the subconscious
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yet like consciousness life is a real observable fact
[13:36] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): Yeah there is something between those basic phyical laws and those basic building blocks and how life and consciousness arises
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Roy and we have no(t yet) any clue :-))
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: I don't see how consciousness could be immaterial. What does Kastrup think it is?
[13:38] herman Bergson: In his opinion it has to be something immaterial, absolutely not the product of material processes
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: I guess I'll have to read that article. :-)
[13:39] herman Bergson: He has written a book... Materialism is balcony....he is Dutch. Don't know if it is translated
[13:39] Max Chatnoir: Why does he think it has to be immaterial?
[13:40] herman Bergson: Google on Bernardo Kastrup
[13:40] herman Bergson: Why do people belief that god(s) exist, Max?
[13:40] herman Bergson: believe..
[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum: not everyone believes that:-)
[13:41] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): leaps of faith to explain the unknown because they don't have answers
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: What does he think that all of those cells are doing if they are not participating in cognition?
[13:41] herman Bergson: The conviction that consciousness is the primary reality is a product of this consciousness itself...
[13:42] herman Bergson: the question where this consciousness comes from isn't asked
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: OK, we need a cell theory of consciousness then.
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: What is the unit of consciousness?
[13:43] Max Chatnoir whispers: Well his theory would account for why the Republicans and the
[13:43] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): Roger Penrose theorized it was coming from quantum phenomenon in the micro tubules of the nerve cells
[13:43] herman Bergson: Well, that is becoming a somewhat difficult story Max
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: Democrats disagree on who won the election.
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: But those micro tubules are material.
[13:44] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): But others say the brain is too wet and mushy for quantum phenominon and nothing has been proven
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Roy, there seems to be more than linear causality in matter
[13:44] herman Bergson: As I said...we still know little about consciousness and the brain
[13:45] herman Bergson: So, before you all loose consciousness due to all these complex questions.......
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can consciousness be OUTSIDE the brain?
[13:45] herman Bergson: It might be better to continue next Thursday ^_^
[13:46] herman Bergson: That is a good one Beertje
[13:46] Max Chatnoir: Good question, Beertje
[13:46] herman Bergson: But the answer is simple
[13:46] herman Bergson: We have no idea what consciousness is, so what do you hope to find outside the brain ? :-)
[13:47] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): if it does then you could say a "soul" exists :)
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no Idea..it was just a question
[13:47] herman Bergson: equating consciousness with soul....????
[13:47] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): I suppose, if it exists outside the brain?
[13:48] herman Bergson: That is too much for me ^_^
[13:48] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): But I doubt it, I feel like theres that something in the middle we don't understand
[13:48] herman Bergson: I'd prefer to call it ghosts Roy :-))
[13:48] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): Our ape brains are too primitive
[13:48] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): haha
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: Does MY consciousness exist outside of MY brain?
[13:48] herman Bergson: that might haunt you in dark places :-))
[13:48] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): I don't think so because if I use anesthesia you lose consciousness
[13:49] Max Chatnoir: It doesn't seem to get very far from the rest of me.
[13:49] herman Bergson: Oh that is a funny one Max
[13:49] herman Bergson: But be aware.....of the fact that you use the word as if it refers to some single coherent object
[13:50] herman Bergson: Maybe the word refers to a collection of features.....
[13:50] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): But people do study collective intelligence and collective conciousness.. there are even single cell organisms that on their own you'd think have none but when they get together they can do some intelligent things like moving towards the food
[13:50] herman Bergson: Take a car.....you call the object a car.......because it can move on its own.....
[13:52] herman Bergson: but if you take the car apart and see all the individual pieces...then ask the question...ok...many parts but where is the car?
[13:52] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): like a combined consciousness of them all is more intelligent than a single one, so perhaps a consciousness existing outside of you, as part of the collective one
[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes roy....are you thinking of those large schools of fishes for instance
[13:52] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): yes
[13:53] Max Chatnoir: And I have lost a lot of cells over the years, but the cells I have not lost are in my nervous system.
[13:53] herman Bergson: magnificent sight how they try to escape predators
[[13:54] herman Bergson: OH..interesting...nerve cells don't regenerate, isn't it. Max?
[13:54] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): I saw this thing on single celled organisms, like a fungi that together grow towards the food, so even less material than a fish
[13:55] herman Bergson: .
[13:55] Max Chatnoir: slime molds, Roy?
[13:55] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): I forget which one it was
[13:55] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): I saw it on tv a while ago
[13:56] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): it was a thing on collective intelligence
[13:56] herman Bergson: There we go again....intelligence....collective intelligence....all very suggestive terms, but......
[13:57] Max Chatnoir: I think you're talking about slime molds. They're multi nucleate and responsive to external stimuli like light and food.
[13:57] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): they put a culture on one side of a petri dish and food on the other and they went straight line for the food as they grew
[13:57] herman Bergson: ahh...yes I think I have seen something like that too, Roy
[13:59] herman Bergson: Well...I think we should continue our discussion and thoughts next Thursday....
[13:59] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation...a good start, if you ask me
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:59] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): Is it same time on thrsday?
[13:59] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): 1300
[13:59] herman Bergson: yes...
[14:00] Roy Sutton (penutbutterjellyman): Okay, thank you
[14:00] herman Bergson: every Tuesday and Thursday at 1 PM SL-time
[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: that was an interesting start to the new semester and I am aware that i was there :-)
[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman and class!
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay
[14:00] Max Chatnoir: Oooh, I hope I can get here! Great discussion!
[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[14:00] herman Bergson: Thank you all.
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