Science as well as common sense are the means that help us understand and interpret the reality we live in. In a previous project (2 - A World Full of Patterns -1 Apr 2021 / 912), we discussed the desire and need of homo sapiens to discover patterns.
If every minute the world looked completely different from the previous minute, that is, when we live in total chaos of randomness, I guess, life even wouldn't be possible.
In other words, the existence of patterns makes life and science possible. The well-known philosopher David Hume wrote in his Enquiry into the Human Understanding (1748) "Custom is the great guide of life".
Fortunately, there is also a pattern in our personal lives to which we are used, and we get confused when the pattern is broken. For instance, you have a steady job, and the next day you are at home unemployed.
So, in all layers of reality, we encounter patterns, where the basic layers of physics are determined by the laws of nature. That everything, that stems from the basic layers is also determined in its existence and behavior because they supervene the base.
This is the point of view of materialism / physicalism. Everything relates to everything in causal relations. Just investigate the causes and you can predict the consequences. This is absolute determinism. Nothing is without a cause. The world is just a machine.
Of course, at this moment you might frown and think of all the unpredictable things and of all the things we don't know the cause of, where you even could wonder if there in fact exists a cause in some cases. Wait, things without a cause? Can that be?
This unpredictability especially applies to homo sapiens: you never know what he will do in situation X. You know a lot of relevant parameters, but how they will determine the outcome, is to be seen.
This brings us to the core of the matter: physicalism and the existence of free will. There are philosophers that say, if physicalism is true, then free will cannot exist.
But such a point of view assumes that everything in this world is causally connected. From the smallest particle to your most recent thought. Thus there can't exist free will.
This made me think of the fact that a lot of neuro-scientific insights are based on correlations, which means that a brain state X and a mental state Y are observed at the same moment.
That is something totally different from saying that brain state X causes mental state Y. So, let's have a look at the difference between causation and correlation for a moment.
Correlation and causation are two related concepts in statistics and research methodology. Correlation refers to a statistical association between variables, where a change in one variable is accompanied by a change in another variable.
It indicates that the variables are related and tend to change together. However, correlation does not imply causation. In other words, just because two variables are correlated does not mean that one variable causes the other to change
On the other hand, causation refers to a cause-and-effect relationship between variables, where changes in one variable directly lead to changes in another variable.
Causation implies correlation, but correlation does not necessarily imply causation. Establishing causation requires additional evidence and rigorous research methods, such as experimental designs that manipulate variables to test causal relationships
Scientifically, of course, you hope, that ongoing research will demonstrate that an observed correlation can be explained as a causal relation eventually.
To show you how strong / weak a correlation is and the difference between correlation and causation, consider the example of ice cream sales and violent crime rates.
These two variables may be highly correlated, meaning that they tend to increase or decrease together. However, it would be incorrect to conclude
that ice cream sales cause violent crime or vice versa. Instead, both variables may be influenced by a third variable, such as hot temperatures during summer months.
So, I still assume the possibility that free will and physicalism go together, and let me add one more thing: physicalism as an ontology is contrary to many other theories and beliefs, a philosophical point of view that eventually can be falsified or proven to be true by science.
Thank you for your attention again....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
The Discussion
[13:23] herman Bergson: Maybe this was a bit (too) complex?
[13:24] Max Chatnoir: I think that complexity may be involved.
[13:24] herman Bergson: Just ask
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am still at ice cream and crime
[13:24] herman Bergson: Iy made me think of so many things
[13:24] Dings (dings.digital): we should feel guilty eating mice cream :)))
[13:24] Max Chatnoir: Think about things like cancer. There may be multiple factors each of which may make t more or less likely.
[13:24] Dings (dings.digital): ice cream
[13:24] Dings (dings.digital): lol
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i got most of the stuff
[13:25] Max Chatnoir: But I like the ice cream and crime story.
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:25] herman Bergson: Let me explain a few things some more....
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): company
[13:25] herman Bergson: Especially the epistemological consequences
[13:25] herman Bergson: Causation....
[13:26] herman Bergson: There we assume a necessary relation between A and B
[13:26] herman Bergson: A causes B
[13:26] herman Bergson: But here comes the mystery
[13:27] herman Bergson: In fact this is what we believe.......because of so many convincing facts
[13:27] herman Bergson: sometimes we can describe the causation......which actually is nothing esle but that B follows A, in great detail
[13:28] herman Bergson: Correlation is fun...
[13:28] herman Bergson: The last correlation I calculated must have been in 1973 or so :-)
[13:28] herman Bergson: That was when statistics in social sciences was a HOT issue....
[13:29] herman Bergson: and the obligation of academics to publish article, otherwise.......
[13:29] herman Bergson: And the social sciences , especially psychology as I remember LOVED correlations
[13:30] herman Bergson: this is the catch.......
[13:30] herman Bergson: You take data set A and data set B
[13:30] herman Bergson: the point is....you don't need any reason for choosing what A or B are about
[13:31] herman Bergson: of course you have an impressive hypothesis....
[13:31] herman Bergson: for instance Mice tend to eat more ice when the cat is not in the house
[13:31] herman Bergson: So set A is volume of ice eaten, set be number of times of absence of the cat
[13:32] herman Bergson: you calculate the correlation and there you are....your hypothesis confirmed
[13:33] herman Bergson: In those years the most idiotic sets were correlated in psychology
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I have a interesting example, when I play bowling I often relate to the Number Demon that cause me to miss a strike or spare to end op with an even score say 123 or 333
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): tha kind of stuff
[13:33] Max Chatnoir: I think that this kind of thing is why hypotheses can't be proved, only disproved.
[13:33] herman Bergson: There recently was a scandal.....most of such experiments and researched couldnt be replicated
[13:34] herman Bergson: True...falsification is the best method
[13:34] herman Bergson: But when you discover a correlation...and it appeals to the imagination, it might bring you publicity
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:35] herman Bergson: But what I want to say is that correlation is largely based on guessing what goes together
[13:35] herman Bergson: of course there exists intelligent guesswork
[13:36] Max Chatnoir: I would love to see a good analysis of the proposition that connects gun violence with the easy availability of guns.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Good example Max...such propositions make sense
[13:37] herman Bergson: But that one is already proven
[13:37] herman Bergson: No guns freely available in almost all European countries....
[13:37] herman Bergson: HArdly gun violence in European countries
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, only police and hunters with a license are allowed to have guns here
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: But the opposing proposition -- guns don't kill people; people kill people -- needs to be considered. And I say this with some reservation because I am totally on the side of restricting gun availability.
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and even the police can not use a gun freely
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well here in Sweden we have drug dealers smuggling guns killing each other blowintg up apartmelts with a lot of people ( a wonder no one have gotten killed yed)3
[13:39] herman Bergson: But that is something different from saying easy availability of guns creates excessive gun violence
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sweden = drug mafia paradise, i juist wait for my apartment door to go KRABAAAAAOOOOOOM!
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): luckly my city is still quite calm
[13:39] Max Chatnoir: Well, it's just that a disturbed person with a gun can do a lot more damaged than a disturbed person without a gun.
[13:39] herman Bergson: Here you have a good example of causation against correlation
[13:40] herman Bergson: A third varianble here can be for instance the culture of a country
[13:40] herman Bergson: or the attitude towards life and death
[13:41] herman Bergson: In Europe we also had vendettas with bloody consequences
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: Or the availability of psychological intervention for disturbed people.
[13:42] herman Bergson: Did I miss something....where is Gemma?
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): visitors in rl
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: She said she had company.
[13:42] herman Bergson: Ahh that is what she meant :-)
[13:44] herman Bergson: But to get back the the basic idea here..... physicalism does not imply absolute determinism. At least in my opinion.
[13:44] herman Bergson: There are others however who say it does and deny the existence of free will
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: OK, I didn't mean to derail the conversation. And I would agree because thing X may not be caused only by thing Y.
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: A lot of things are complicated.
[13:45] herman Bergson: But , you know, there it ends for me somewhat......this detailed arguments among the academic philosophers.....
[13:46] herman Bergson: It is good that they indulge in astronomical hairsplitting, It might bring new insights....
[13:46] herman Bergson: But it will not make us happy if you join such discussions :-)
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i can imagine
[13:47] herman Bergson: Good for academics at universities...it is their work...
[13:48] herman Bergson: Bu there I present you with the general discourse in philosophy. Complex enough
[13:48] herman Bergson: And a bit personal too :-)
[13:49] herman Bergson: For I have to take a position in the materialist / anti materials debate.
[13:50] herman Bergson: And I think I have convincing arguments that materialism/physicalism is a meaningful ontology and a basis for finding meaning of life.
[13:50] herman Bergson: AMEN......:-)))
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ツ
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Merci bien
[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: grins
[13:51] herman Bergson: Anyone still with a question or remark at the tip of his/her tongue?
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:52] Max Chatnoir: Well, I would second your amen.
[13:52] herman Bergson smiles
[13:52] herman Bergson: Then I can offer you a pleasant weekend...
[13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all again...
[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ....
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:53] Max Chatnoir: Thank you, Herman.
[13:53] Dings (dings.digital): Thank you herman
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