What physicalism makes unpopular, although most sciences heavily lean on a materialist approach of reality, is of course the existence of our mind. Homo sapiens generally assumes that this mind makes him special and not just a hodgepodge of atoms.
For that reason, all kinds of philosophies about the nature of the mind have been developed through history and the unpopular one is the theory "no matter, no mind", to put it simply.
It is meaningless to deny the existence of the mind, of course, but that brings us to the question: what is the underlying material base of this mind.
There are a number of answers on offer. Some would say the individual's brain is the underlying base. Others might say it is the entire nervous system of the individual. And yet others would point to the entire body of the individual as the underlying base.
Let's first clarify the concepts of supervenience and emergence which are meant to help us understand and explain relations in reality.
In philosophy, supervenience is a relation between two sets of properties. The first set is called the base properties, and the second set is called the supervenient properties.
The base properties are said to supervene on the supervenient properties if and only if every change in the supervenient properties is entailed by a change in the base properties.
Take for instance the color of a flower. This color is caused by certain molecules present in the flower. So the color supervenes the molecules in the flower.
The color is 100% dependent on the kind of molecules in the flower, which entails that if the molecules are changed, the color also changes. In fact, you can reduce the color green to the statement "That plant contains chlorophyll", which says the same as the statement "The plant is green".
Emergence is a more complex concept than supervenience. It is the idea that new properties can arise from the interaction of lower-level properties. These new properties are said to be emergent properties.
For example, the property of consciousness is said to be an emergent property. This is because consciousness does not seem to be reducible to the lower-level properties of the brain. Consciousness seems to be something more than the sum of its parts.
A way to think about the difference is that supervenient properties are always predictable from the base properties, while emergent properties may not be.
In other words, if we know all of the base properties of a system, then we can predict all of the supervenient properties of that system.
However, we may not be able to predict all of the emergent properties of a system, even if we know all of the base properties.
Maybe you already feel it coming. If supervenient properties, for instance, emotions, choices, or ideas, are always predictable from the base properties, then what about our free will?
Material processes are subject to the laws of nature. There is no wiggle room there. Processes are what they are and will always be the same given the underlying base.
That leads to one of the popular arguments against physicalism. If you assume that all properties are supervenient, homo sapiens is just a completely deterministic machine, of whom you can predict all his actions.
This can't be true. We love the belief in our free will too much. Enough material to think about for now.....
Thank you for your attention again.....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
The Discussion
[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:15] Daruma Boa: Thank u
[13:15] herman Bergson: Now to get back to Daruma's remark
[13:16] herman Bergson: It contains some interesting philosophical questions
[13:16] herman Bergson: she said: why should mind be material?
[13:16] herman Bergson: My first question is....what does that "should"mean?
[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for materialists i guess there is nothing else
[13:17] herman Bergson: we are dealing with facts. There is no "should"in facts
[13:17] Daruma Boa: The mind creates everything material
[13:17] herman Bergson: Ahhh Kastrup here!@!!
[13:18] Daruma Boa: *GIGGLES* :)~~~~
[13:18] herman Bergson: the true idealist
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:18] Daruma Boa: What eles in life is creating something?
[13:18] herman Bergson: Ok Daruma...and can you tell me where this mind comes from in this material world?
[13:18] Daruma Boa: From every individual being
[13:19] Daruma Boa: Some say its god
[13:19] Daruma Boa: But I think its the energy of life
[13:19] herman Bergson: But where do god and individual beings come from?
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here is where the materialist disagrees
[13:19] Daruma Boa: A source which I do not know - yet
[13:19] herman Bergson: Yes we are doing fine Gemma ˆ_ˆ
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they believe is it all material again
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): itself
[13:20] herman Bergson: Hold on....!
[13:20] herman Bergson: Whatever someone says....
[13:20] herman Bergson: one of the most dangerous arguments is: A source which I do not know
[13:21] herman Bergson: and yet claim to tell some truth
[13:21] herman Bergson: It is as if I hear Comer talk....
[13:21] Daruma Boa: Its a possibilty. One of many
[13:21] Max Chatnoir: I will raise the same question I did last time. If the mind is separate from the body, how do they connect?
[13:21] herman Bergson: I disagree Daruma
[13:22] Daruma Boa: And why is there spirit and body?
[13:22] herman Bergson: The answer is simple Max....we don't know..we only know they are connected
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): This is always an issue with materialism as a philosophy i think
[13:22] herman Bergson: There never has been discovered a spirit Daruma
[13:23] Daruma Boa: The material plane is always a problem for human kind;--)
[13:23] herman Bergson: Not really Gemma...it all depends on the development of neurobiology
[13:23] Max Chatnoir: Spirit is an aspect of consciousness.
[13:23] herman Bergson: those are just words, Max, in my opinion
[13:24] Max Chatnoir: True, and I think that consciousness might be connected to language.
[13:24] Max Chatnoir: If beings cannot communicate, would they have consciousness?
[13:24] herman Bergson: Sure....we are the only organismes using meaningfull language
[13:25] herman Bergson: But in fact that is too our handicap
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some animals would disagree
[13:25] Max Chatnoir: Let me tell you an odd story, that may suggest that animals have consciousness.
[13:25] herman Bergson: Because in language we can create words and then make you belief that word means something....for instant the word ...spirit
[13:25] Daruma Boa: Language is not only words
[13:25] Daruma Boa: So also animals and plants communicate.
[13:26] Daruma Boa: And this is proofed by science.
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: Language is about communication.
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: Can I tell you my odd story?
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Max...go ahead....
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: When I came home from choir practice on Wednesday, somebody had tripped a car alarm, and it was going off.
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: beep beep beep.......
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: They finally got it turn off, but the beeping continued only not with the same rhythm.
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: I went outside to see what was making the noise and it was a bird, calling on exactly the same pitch as the car alarm.
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): mimic
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: Only the rhythm was not so regular.
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bluejay probably
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: Might have been. They are around.
[13:28] herman Bergson: lol...I know there are birds that imitate sounds
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but whales understand eachother
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: I think the bird heard the alarm as another bird communicating and was talking back.
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: But I'm just guessing of course.
[13:28] herman Bergson: But let me get back to Daruma's remark:So also animals and plants communicate.
[13:29] Max Chatnoir: Yes, it's not just us.
[13:29] herman Bergson: You can say that animals and even plants communicate.....
[13:29] herman Bergson: but what means çommunicate'....
[13:30] herman Bergson: exchange of information
[13:30] Max Chatnoir: So our experience of consciousness is complicated, but I think that simpler forms of what we call consciousness might exist.
[13:30] Daruma Boa: Giving information to someone else
[13:30] herman Bergson: that is what animals do...year after year...
[13:30] Max Chatnoir: Because other species respond to one another and to their environment.
[13:30] herman Bergson: they never change their way of communicating
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: They can. If a bird grows up with the wrong species, its call will be changed.
[13:31] herman Bergson: that is incomparable to the way homo sapiens communicates....he exchanges KNOWLEDGE
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:31] Daruma Boa: Also animals do that
[13:31] Daruma Boa: When they found out something else
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: That's part of what language is for, exchanging what we know.
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): homo sapiens has fantasie, animals don't have that skill
[13:31] herman Bergson: I know...some bird learn the wrong songs now and then
[13:31] Daruma Boa: E.g. Ravens
[13:31] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje
[13:32] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.
[13:32] herman Bergson: You can teach a parrot to say HELLO MY FRIEND....
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: and whales change their song every breeding season.
[13:33] herman Bergson: but that isnt communication for the bird has no idea of the meaning of what it utters
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that is memory not fantasy Max
[13:33] Daruma Boa: Perhaps not in their mind, but the know it
[13:33] Daruma Boa: We are so stupid, we must have it in our head;-)
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not sure about that Herman .. i think they do
[13:33] herman Bergson: Hold on....
[13:33] Max Chatnoir: I think it's communication. Some whale starts the new song and the others help it along.
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some highly
[13:33] Daruma Boa: The human race is not able to trust
[13:34] herman Bergson: To trust what Daruma?
[13:34] herman Bergson: or who?
[13:34] Daruma Boa: What they already kniw. We think to much.
[13:34] Daruma Boa: And we want to "see" everything on the materall plane;-)
[13:34] herman Bergson: We think to much.....:-)
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is true
[13:35] herman Bergson: Never say that to a philosopher Daruma....
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we give ourselves headaches thinking
[13:35] Daruma Boa: ;-)
[13:35] herman Bergson: for WHO sets the standerd for TOO MUCH?
[13:35] herman Bergson: You?
[13:35] Daruma Boa: Everyone for himself.
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): my brain when it hurts
[13:35] Daruma Boa: There is no guideline
[13:35] herman Bergson: That makes no sense Daruma
[13:36] Daruma Boa: Try and error
[13:36] herman Bergson: So many people so many standards...so no standard
[13:37] Daruma Boa: We always want to have guidelines. But I guess life is very complicatetd and must experienced by everyone alone.
[13:37] theo Velde is online.
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I still say the problem is that the Materialist really believes there is no spirit connected to the brain
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or the mind
[13:37] herman Bergson: If everyone sets the standard for himself....why then should I comply with the standard of someone else????
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or consciousness
[13:37] herman Bergson: I agree Gemmma
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: If the mind emerges from the brain or the nervous system or the body as a whole, then it has to be connected.
[13:38] Daruma Boa: We always try to find a meaning for everyone. But I think this is not possible. Or is it?
[13:38] herman Bergson: Your remark is pure dualistic....
[13:38] Daruma Boa: Is there a standard for everyone?
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the materialist believes in this as strongly as a religious believer
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): based on science of course
[13:38] Daruma Boa: We can have some ideas, thats ok. What we found out so far.
[13:39] herman Bergson: I DISAGREE Gemma...!!!!!
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh?
[13:39] Daruma Boa: But the truth? I gues we are still far away from that.
[13:39] herman Bergson: the materialist believes in this as strongly as a religious believer
[13:39] herman Bergson: I disagree
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I know
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:39] herman Bergson: This has nothing to do with belief
[13:39] Max Chatnoir: How do you measure strength of belief?
[13:40] herman Bergson: By the facts, Max
[13:40] herman Bergson: By science
[13:40] Daruma Boa: Well, everything we do in life has to do what we belief.
[13:40] Daruma Boa: Or what we learned in life
[13:40] Daruma Boa: Human kind is not objective
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): based on science .....
[13:40] Max Chatnoir: That measures how belief concords with reality.
[13:40] Max Chatnoir: science.
[13:41] herman Bergson: That is the only tool we have to deal with reality
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: you can evaluated a hypothesis, but you can't measure how much you believe it.
[13:41] Anna Adamant Albion (anna.adamant) is offline.
[13:41] herman Bergson: that is where whole industries and production processes are based on....scientific facts
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: comparing religious belief to scientific belief.
[13:41] Daruma Boa: whatever that means;-)
[13:42] herman Bergson: You only test a hypothesis by research and factual findings
[13:42] Daruma Boa: To have a "safe" feeling.
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: All of the US MAGAs really seem to believe that Trump won the election. With no evidence.
[13:42] Daruma Boa: That someone knows the "truth"
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: At least they act as thought they believe it.
[13:42] Daruma Boa: *GIGGLES* :)~~~~
[13:42] herman Bergson: If you comapere those two, Max, let them come and proof their statements by the facts they can deliver
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they sure do
[13:42] Daruma Boa: Yes Max
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): gets a headache
[13:43] herman Bergson smiles
[13:43] Daruma Boa: Na Gemma - al is fine!
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): trigger
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): gives aspirin to Gemma
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: I might find that belief totally bonkers.
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): trump
[13:43] Daruma Boa: dont mention that word
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok better
[13:44] herman Bergson: Well...to preserve the health of you all....time-out....:-)
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: ;-)
[13:44] herman Bergson: Let's battle on next Tuesday ^_ˆ
[13:44] Daruma Boa: aaaa;)
[[13:44] Max Chatnoir: I must say this is an engaging topic!
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:45] herman Bergson: Looks like it indeed ˆ_ˆ
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wil try to make it Tuesday
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: Yes, thanks for bringing it up.
[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you all...I loved our discussion today
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but is really busy
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:45] Daruma Boa: Thank u!
[13:45] Daruma Boa: Me too
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you then!
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bejita must be on his thing
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