After our accidental renewed acquaintance with Bernardo Kastrup, the Dutch philosopher who claims the primacy of consciousness as the basis of reality.
Let's continue our investigation into the feasibility of philosophical materialism as a realistic ontology in relation to the world we live in and the world of science.
Where we ended our journey before the vacation period was about the issue of properties. So, let me try to refresh our memories and get the philosophical narrative on properties rolling again.
We live in a material world of objects and all objects have properties. That is how our brain has learned to organize the incoming data. The grass is green, my friend is tall and intelligent, the sky is blue.
Our research was in the phenomenon of supervenient and emergent properties and all kinds of ways to organize the different kinds of properties. There doesn't exist a universally accepted theory on properties, so we'll do it our way.
The first distinction we can make is the difference between external and internal properties. My desk is made of oak wood and it is at a distance of 2 meters from my bookcase.
Two properties, an internal one, being made of wood, and an external one, being at a certain distance from my bookcase. Changes in the internal property are way more consequential than changing the external property and moving my table 20 cm further away from my bookcase.
So the primary concern is with internal properties. However, the internal properties of my table are complex. One property we call wooden, but wood consists of molecules, so another property of my table could be described as a collection of molecules.
Molecules are composed of atoms, thus my table is a collection of atoms. This leads to the conclusion that we can speak of layers of reality and layers of knowledge.
The carpenter describes the table in terms of construction and wood. The physicist describes the same table in terms of atoms. In that sense, we can say that reality is layered and that every layer comes with its own knowledge base.
Of course in some basic sense, reality is not layered, it just IS. It is conceived of as layered from the viewpoint of human knowledge and understanding. Human knowledge brings an understanding of the table, its weight, its construction, and its material constituent, oak for instance.
But human science also provides information with regard to its constituent atoms and molecules, its composition in terms of elements, and the way it exhibits solidity to human touch.
Theoretical physics is preoccupied with bringing an understanding of the sub-atomic world underlying the atomic and molecular structure of the table. This all shows a complex hierarchy, where physics is taken to be the most general science that concerns itself with all phenomena.
The suggestion here is that there is a hierarchy of sciences. It is not a completely neat structure. Special sciences like psychology or biology, overlap and share concerns, but physics is seen as the foundational science upon which the others build.
Our next issue is the fact that though adhering to materialism some might object to this ontology and point at properties that aren't material at all, like the wetness of water, or mental phenomena, like consciousness of course.
That will be our next stop......
Thank you all again for your attention.
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
The Discussion
[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:17] Dings (dings.digital): thank you
[13:17] herman Bergson: So the next stop is how a materialist can accept apparently non material properties of objects
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Seems to me physics itself is undergoing changes in the past few years and in the future
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as they get farther out into space and learn more
[13:18] herman Bergson: There are confusing observations indeed Gemma
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and deeper into nano
[13:18] herman Bergson: also quantum mechanics is becoming more confusing the old paradigms
[13:19] Dings (dings.digital): everybody knows that the most foundational kind of knowledge is social media (just kidding :D )
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ouch
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:19] herman Bergson: But you may wonder in what way it would affect a materialist ontology?
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some i would think
[13:19] herman Bergson: Good point Dings....:-))
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): adds more confusion
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes...especially because it creates an alternative reality and alternative facts....
[13:21] herman Bergson: Well...we are here also an alternative reality :-)
[13:21] Inkaku Capalini (inkaku.capalini) is online.
[13:21] herman Bergson: But we can stick to real facts here
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): people behind the av's are real
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): from all over the world
[13:22] Dings (dings.digital): yes
[13:22] herman Bergson: The Rl rules of rationality and facticity apply here too
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): soom AI might change that too, avatar bots powered by AI
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hope that will not be the case
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): case
[13:22] herman Bergson: I am not so worried about that Bejiita....
[13:23] herman Bergson: For the time being AI is still a (useful) hype
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true i guess
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I use it myself, mostly as a complement to Stackoverflow
[13:23] herman Bergson: Although...if you allow me to digress a little
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): long ago they thought a radio was dangerous too
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and print
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the devils work
[13:24] herman Bergson: Yesterday there was an article in my newspaper which asked the question What if AI becomes a supreme being, Will it overtake god?
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes Gemma
[13:24] herman Bergson: they burned books
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still do
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or ban them anyway
[13:25] herman Bergson: the destroyed weaving machinery
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or try
[13:25] herman Bergson: TV would create couch potatoes
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): at least with a soccer game:)
[13:26] herman Bergson: RIGHT Beertje!
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and TURF was created to get the gaming couch potatoes fit again by combining an app game with GPS orienting
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): btu they do exercise watching
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): jump up and down
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a bit ´like Pokémon go but even earlier
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Gemma
[13:27] herman Bergson: Well...so far it seems nice to live in a materialist world :-)
[13:27] Dings (dings.digital): yes, pizza is my favorite materialist thing
[13:27] herman Bergson: to some extend...I admit....
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how could we live in a non-materialistic world?
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Matrix?
[13:28] herman Bergson: I prefer sushi , Dings :-))
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): pizza!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[13:28] Dings (dings.digital): sound good, herman
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yay
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yum!
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok there u decided my night snack for this evening!
[13:28] herman Bergson: SUSHI.. !!!!!!!
[13:28] herman Bergson: yay
[13:28] herman Bergson: ok
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i don't like pizza
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or burgers
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not?
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nor burgers
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what will be your snack!
[13:29] herman Bergson: ok...then it is time to get ready for the next lecture on Tuesday.....
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well they are both quite greasy foods
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true
[13:29] Dings (dings.digital): pizza or sushi, that is a deep philosophical question
[13:29] herman Bergson: Unless you still have that final question....
[13:29] herman Bergson: There you have it....
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): [13:27] Beertje Beaumont: how could we live in a non-materialistic world?
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): TO PIZZA OR SUSHI THAT IS THE QUESTION!
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol3
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:30] Dings (dings.digital): lol
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well Dings...I am reviving my Japanese.....
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks we will have devastation
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:30] herman Bergson: Nihon go wo hanashimasu...:-)
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and more conflicts
[13:31] herman Bergson日本語を反します
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): philosophy is bad enough!! forget the languages!!
[13:31] herman Bergson: Really great to study again :-)
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:32] herman Bergson: no no Gemma....I am a collector....
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i know a ton of programming languages at least
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): レッスンをありがとう
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): collect them in another place!!
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): would like to get better on Japanese also among other ones
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:32] herman Bergson: Dutch, German, French, English, Spanish and now Japanese again too :-)
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have fun
[13:32] herman Bergson: I do :-)
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): rl languages are trickier, programming languages always have qite big similarities, if u know one u can quite easy pick up another
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): human languages, not so much, at least its trickier
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): huge differences in words, grammar meaning ect.
[13:33] herman Bergson: Oh...speak those languages too Bejiita...BASIC, Pascal, C, LSL...:-)
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and culture
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:33] Dings (dings.digital): yes, how did they come up with all these languages?
[13:34] herman Bergson: YES DINGS in interesting question.....
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Basic and pascal was forever since i touched though but LSL i can work with
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its more C like
[13:34] herman Bergson: Because some languages are almost impossible to learn...I tried Polish for instance.....no way!
[13:35] herman Bergson: Try Russian!
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha the true tong twister language
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): how did you learn english then it is worse!!
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Fins is also a crime
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have a dance friend who is from there,
[13:35] herman Bergson: But those Fins speak it as if it is their native language Beertje ˆ_ˆ
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol, as Dutch is
[13:36] Dings (dings.digital): good thing in English it is the, the, the or the :)))
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ture
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes and you...you...you
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): finnish must be one of the hardest there is
[13:36] Dings (dings.digital): yes :)
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so the verb changes endings
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Swedish Norwegian and Danish have similarities, Finnish completely different, its more like Estonian if anything
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): these 2 are a bit similar
[13:37] herman Bergson: ok ...ok....after finishing the philosophy classes we turn it in a language class here :-))
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nope
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:37] Dings (dings.digital): second is cooking class
[13:37] herman Bergson: one vote registered :-)
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or prograamming
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ,lol
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nope
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i can learn u game dev
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:38] herman Bergson: two votes registered:-))
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:38] herman Bergson: maybe a rigged voting :-)
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): RIGGED!
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lot's of stuff is rigged here
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:38] herman Bergson: So...thank you all for your attention and votes again....let's go to Tuesday and supervenient and emergent properties
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): レッスンをありがとう
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope i can make it
[13:39] Dings (dings.digital): yeah, lets go supervenient
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa same here
[13:39] Dings (dings.digital): thank you
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): will see what the TURF schedule is
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you soon!
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs Gemma
[13:40] herman Bergson: You say arigato Beertje, but I am not used too much to the katakana you use
[13:40] herman Bergson: ok Gemma....
[13:40] Dings (dings.digital): good bye everyone, have a good time
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