Tuesday, April 3, 2018

705: Is the Self only an image?

Today will be the last lecture of the project "In Search of our Self".
If you want hardcore philosophy about this subject, then try "Personal Identity" as search word.
When you check the "Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy" or "The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy" you'll find very complex articles.
As an example the next quote: "Answers to the persistence question often provide a criterion of personal identity. 
A criterion is a set of non-trivial necessary and sufficient conditions that determines, insofar as that is possible, 
whether distinct temporally indexed person-stages are stages of one and the same continuant person. " END QUOTE -
What the author means to say is, that we exist and persist in time and what stays the same through time, you could call your Self, your personal identity.
And  then the debate begins. Is the criterion derived from the body, or from psychological features  or from both together?
In our world of technology and medicines so much is possible. Suppose a brain is transplanted into another body? 
Or the total personality change  which people show who are demented. Do they yet stay the same person?
Suppose this demented person has written and signed a declaration, when he still was 100% "himself", in which  he states,
that, if he will suffer of total dementia, he wants to die, when in that state. Euthanasia when totally demented, is his wish. Does the demented person agree with this choice?
Such questions and discussions made me think of Wilfrid Sellars. Maybe his ideas can help us to keep the debate transparant.
In his "Philosophy and the Scientific Image of Man" (1962), Sellars distinguishes between the "manifest image" and the "scientific image" of the world.
The Manifest Image includes intentions, thoughts, and appearances. Sellars rules out appeal to imperceptible entities.
The Scientific Image describes the world in terms of the theoretical physical sciences. It includes notions such as causality and theories about particles and forces.
The two images sometimes complement one another, and sometimes conflict. For example, the manifest image includes practical or moral claims, whereas the scientific image does not.
There is conflict, for instance. where science tells us that apparently solid objects are mostly empty space.
Sellars favours a synoptic vision, wherein the scientific image takes ultimate precedence in cases of conflict, at least with respect to empirical descriptions and explanations.
Maybe we only see our Self in the Manifest Image and not in the Scientific Image.
Consider an analogy: Rodin's "Le Penseur" is made of bronze. Although the lump of bronze and the statue itself surely exist, 
these objects have different persistence conditions: if melted down, "Le Penseur" ceases to exist while the lump of bronze does not. 
Therefore, they are not identical; rather, so is the suggestion, the lump of bronze constitutes the statue. 
The same is true of persons, who are constituted by, but not identical with, a physiology, a psychology, and the occurrence of an interrelated series of causal and cognitive relations.
So maybe the Person, the Self is in its manifestation only an image ?
This concludes our project.. The next project will start on TUESDAY MARCH 27.......
Thank you for your attention again....^_^

The Discussion

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): manifest image
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting
[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes...I like this idea of Sellars
[13:24] herman Bergson: Many discussions seem to mix these two images
[13:25] herman Bergson: which is only confusing
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are 2 different views for sure
[13:25] herman Bergson: yes...kind of common sense view and scientific view, Bejiita
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:25] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will have to read up on those both
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that statue example was a good one
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes...most important is the ontological implications
[13:27] Anuska (anuska.loon) is offline.
[13:27] herman Bergson: the point is that the staue "exists"....but in what way....
[13:27] herman Bergson: while the bronze exists in the physical (scientific) way
[13:27] herman Bergson: same with the person....
[13:28] herman Bergson: We have that book with the title ....WE ARE OUR BRAIN
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the metal is the same chemically but its shape is changed
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 2 different things
[13:28] herman Bergson: but this analogy shows that this is not true
[13:28] herman Bergson: YEs BEjiita....but in what way does that shape "exist"
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shape is a property only
[13:29] herman Bergson: It does...the statue is there....yo can see it
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a property of the substance
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that can be changed
[13:29] herman Bergson: ISn't it great....
[13:29] herman Bergson: we end up in an old old philosophical debate....
[13:29] herman Bergson: the ontological status of properties
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right back t the beginning
[13:30] CB Axel: So we can be shaped like the bronze.
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:30] herman Bergson: Indeed Gemma.....back to the Ancient Greek to begin with
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we can never get away from them
[13:30] CB Axel: lol
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it will be so after the 20th century i bet
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:31] herman Bergson: A statue for CB , please :-)
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (3d prints one)
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers:
[13:31] herman Bergson: Good plan Bejiita
[13:32] herman Bergson: The interesting thing is...what Sellars does....
[13:32] CB Axel: I can't help but think about clones. If one clones a dog, they get something that looks like the original dog, but the clone has it's own self.
[13:32] herman Bergson: He makes science a kind of a-moral....
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes dolly at UCONN
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sheep
[13:32] herman Bergson: He puts the moral questions into the Manifest image
[13:33] herman Bergson: and thinking of it....that is a questionable position
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:33] herman Bergson: as if science is a-political in its choices...
[13:33] herman Bergson: and a-,oral
[13:34] herman Bergson: a-moral
[13:34] herman Bergson: The more I think about it.....
[13:34] herman Bergson: his idea is outdated but charming
[13:35] herman Bergson: I hear noo protests, so I guess you agree :-)))
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): need to know more of Sellars
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): shall check him out
[13:35] herman Bergson: You got two weeks at least Gemma :-)
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: Wilfrid Sellars
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will he be a big part of the next theme?
[13:36] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or dismissed
[13:36] herman Bergson: no...
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well i wont check to hard then
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too hard
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Gemma
[13:37] herman Bergson: The next theme will begin at 1900 :-)
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): love the historical idea here
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes..me too Gemma....
[13:37] herman Bergson: Digging into all that stuff....seeing connections....
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): too bad for the ones who were born in 2000
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this can be really exciting and good
[13:38] herman Bergson: Well Beertje....I really wonder now and then.....
[13:39] herman Bergson: Those born in 2000 and later.....and knowing that I wont make 2030 :-)
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh
[13:39] herman Bergson: A next generation will carry on.....
[13:39] herman Bergson: wel...I am 68 Gemma....will I make 98...? :-)))
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes !
[13:40] herman Bergson: lol
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): keep breathing
[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes...true...:-)
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I know a couple who are over 100
[13:41] herman Bergson: But I think we'll check out this 20th century and see what all our kids will take with them....into the future
[13:41] CB Axel: My great-grandmother lived to be 103.  I hope I don't take after her.
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what I ment was...those born in 2000 can't remember anything from that century
[13:41] herman Bergson: We have hostory books Beertje :-)
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no i think that is why so many movies are being remade
[13:42] CB Axel: There's no need for them to remember anything. They have Google.
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and  theater too
[13:42] herman Bergson: and the always can google on "2000"
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes..but remembering from your experiences is different
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ( and I remember a lot )...lol
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true
[13:43] herman Bergson: the year  2000 itself was totally uninteresting :-)
[13:43] herman Bergson: Nothing happened...no millennium bug at all
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes it did not blow up
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:43] herman Bergson: exactly Gemma :-)
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we really were all so nervous
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe the millennium bug has..een hollands ketiekre
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ketierke
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however there could have been some serious issues, but they were able to fix them in time
[13:44] herman Bergson: That may have happened indeed Bejiita
[13:45] herman Bergson: anyway......
[13:45] herman Bergson: from now on you are all on your Self now :-))
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): looking forward to the new topic
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): topic
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mostly was COBOL variables with only 2 numbers that could have done some stuff to finance stuff and such since banks still rely on it and most colbol programmers are since long retired
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): while i continue looking for myself
[13:45] herman Bergson: I'll do what I can Gemma :-)
[[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): looking forward to this
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): can be really good
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hope i will be here on the 27 th..i go on a holiday too
[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation.....:-)
[13:46] herman Bergson: You deserve a vacation! :-))
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have a good rest now hermand and all others too
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh i thought i lose my shoes but bergie is going barefoot
[13:47] herman Bergson: I gonna study onthe new topic Bejiita...:-)
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa:)
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): our brains need a rest
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes beertje
[13:47] herman Bergson: If I tortured you too much, I apologize :-)
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you did :))
[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i feel the spring:-)
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we do
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): spring
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa hopefully soon
[13:48] herman Bergson: YES Bergie...me too :-))
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it start getting warmer now at least finally
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however expecting 8 inches of sow tomorrow
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): snow@@!
[13:48] CB Axel: We had snow overnight, but not much.
[13:48] herman Bergson: oh my....
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): 8-12
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ow
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a lot
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:48] herman Bergson: we just had a week of snow and frost....
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we will see
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but it wont last long will get warmer
[13:48] CB Axel: Yes. The storm that hit north of me is heading east. °͜°
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but then another on Monday maybe !!!
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): March is mean
[13:49] herman Bergson: I am glad winter is over here
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is it??
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you are sure??
[13:49] herman Bergson: yes...
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:49] herman Bergson: Don't try to frighten me Gemma!
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): who's afraid of a bit snow?
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i saw a picture of people walking on the water in Amsterdam
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the other day
[13:50] herman Bergson: yes yes.....that was possible last week!
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wans't that jesus walking on water?
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nope lots of Amsterdam people
[13:51] herman Bergson: oh,....so many Jesuses in Amsterdam Beertje?
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): all jesusses
[13:51] herman Bergson: gender neutral Jesus, I guess
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): of course :)
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are gender neutral now
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): enjoy your vacation
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i'm a uhhhmmm  wo...uhhmmm man
[13:52] herman Bergson: I will Gemma...time to read a lot
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye all for now
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu all
[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)))
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): until next time, have a good time
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:52] CB Axel: Good bye, everyone. I'll see you all on the other side of the time change. °͜°
[13:52] bergfrau Apfelbaum: happy vacation you all!
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:52] herman Bergson: Indeed CB
[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman :-)
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): need to clean this carpet Herman,, stull pooh on the ground :)
[13:53] herman Bergson: oh my
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): fijne vakantie
[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol Beertje


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