Wednesday, April 18, 2018

709: The Impact of Sigmund Freud...

The year 1900 isn't necessarily a special year because of its number. Yet it was a special beginning of a new century.
In that very year did happen some intellectual developments, which would have an indelible effect on our way of thinking.
The first intellectual even makes me think of the effect which Descartes has had on our thinking with his dualism, his body - mind theory.
To me it is a real philosophical and scientific mistake, but it had and still has a tremendous effect on our culture.
What happened in that year 1900 is on the one hand a continuation of the Cartesian mistake
and on the other hand a total revision of the way we see ourselves. We still experience the consequences today.
On January 6, 1900 there appeared a book review in a Vienna newspaper. The book that was reviewed was "Die Traumdeutung" (The Interpretation of Dreams) by Sigmund Freud.
Don't expect a cheering review. The book was very controversial and even considered to be offensive.
For Freud it wasn't a pleasant time either. He was ignored. The neurological Institute of the University of Vienna ceased all contact with Freud.
The first edition of the book was 600 copies. After  two years only 228 were sold. After six years only 351 copies were sold.
In 1902 however Alfred Adler joined Freud and among others in 1907 Carl Gustav Jung did. Finally in 1908 Freud was a kind of accepted again in the world of scientists.
Nevertheless Freud rightly regarded "Die Traumdeutung" as his most important work. 
The four basic concepts of his theory about human nature are here for the first time dealt with in their context:
the unconscious, repression, infantile sexuality, from which the Oedipus complex arises, and the three layers of the psyche: 
the Ego: the self-awareness, the Superego, which can be seen as  our conscience and the ID, the elementary biological expression of the subconscious.
For a while Freud himself experimented with hypnosis on hysteria patients. Then he dropped the method 
to switch to 'free association', asking the patient to say everything that came into his or her head. 
This is how Freud discovered that, if brought into the right situation, people can remember completely forgotten events from their earliest childhood. 
He also came to the conclusion that such events, even if they had been forgotten, could work through the later behavior of people. 
Thus the concept of the subconscious and of repression was born.
Freud also found that the memories that came up with difficulty, with the help of free association, were mostly sexual in nature.  
When he also determined that the "remembered" events had not happened at all, he developed the theory of the Oedipus complex. 
What came next we'll address in the next lecture, but what is clear already is, that this theory of Freud has had a huge impact on how we see our life....
To be continued....thank you again for your attention... ^_^

The Discussion
[13:14] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:14] Piovefiore: Thank you
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:15] herman Bergson: Just see the impact....
[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): immense
[13:15] Faust (faust.saenz): Fascinating!
[13:15] CB Axel: I can't believe in repressed memories when I've seen how easy it is to implant memories in people.
[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:15] herman Bergson: even a court takes the history of a juvinile into account
[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but there are those who still believe it is a big influence
[13:16] Faust (faust.saenz): 3rd wave therapy takes the idea of subconscious seriously
[13:16] herman Bergson: What about a Post Traumatic Stress Syndrom CB?
[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:16] herman Bergson: It is a real thing ...
[13:17] herman Bergson: it happens to people
[13:17] Ciska Riverstone: I guess there is a difference between real experience still and "implanted memory"
[13:17] CB Axel: I'm not talking about PTSD in people who have been through documented stressful situations, but the way people get questioned by police, for instance, can influence how things are remembered.
[13:17] herman Bergson: oh yes...
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is true
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very
[13:18] herman Bergson: True CB.....
[13:18] Piovefiore: Yes, it is
[13:18] herman Bergson: there is prove of that....that they remember things..though they never did it
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very interesting story here in CT of Peter Reilly
[13:18] CB Axel: I also believe in the "reptilian brain" and how it can influence people under stress.
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): definitely implanted murder of mother
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he never did commit
[13:19] herman Bergson: That is the point CB....
[13:19] herman Bergson: that is where freud changed into Fraud :-)
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:19] herman Bergson: our neurobioological insights makes Freud a fraud
[13:19] Piovefiore: :)
[13:20] CB Axel: You all really should check out The Hidden Brain at
[13:20] herman Bergson: Bu tit is the same with Descartes...
[13:20] Ciska Riverstone: the difficult thing is to keep it all apart  - we can much more differentiate now
[13:20] herman Bergson: what do you mean Ciska?
[13:20] CB Axel: I consider Freud a fraud for the most part, but I equate his id with the reptilian brain.
[13:21] Piovefiore: I am interested in hearing more about Descartes' influence in Freud, and your point of dissent with both
[13:21] herman Bergson: correct CB :-)
[13:21] herman Bergson: If I may say so :-)
[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: for example when authority questions someone who is already psychologically challenged - for example lacking attention of others or whatever - that will go different then with a "normal" developed person
[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: so you need to take into account both parties in a communication always
[13:22] herman Bergson: ok...
[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: to evaluate that psychologically
[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: we know that today - no one thought about it 1900
[13:22] Piovefiore: Also I think Freud made broad generalizations without taking into account the fact that things occur in a context, and in situation
[13:23] herman Bergson: About Descartes...
[13:23] herman Bergson: He introduced the mind - body dichotomy....
[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: Yes Pio - he basically speculated to get a generalized picture of some inner process
[13:24] herman Bergson: Freud continued on that by his theory of an Ego, Superego and ID
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:24] herman Bergson: and all of Europe fell for it wile it still was thinking in dualistic terms
[13:25] Piovefiore: Some contemporary psychotherapies would even now contest the division of humans in "inner and outer", and even state that there are no "inner processes"
[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: well I guess he must have been one of the first man to talk openly about inner processes in some sort of way
[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: that does not make him right ;) - it just makes him a pioneer in trying to describe things
[13:25] herman Bergson: So true Pio and so correct too :-)
[13:26] CB Axel: I like that, Ciska. That could be his main contribution.
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): could be
[13:26] Faust (faust.saenz): There are just inputs, processes and outcomes.
[13:26] herman Bergson: Oh yes ciska...he WAS a pioneer....
[13:27] herman Bergson: telling us that we are not just motivated by what we really want...
[13:27] Piovefiore: For Gestalt therapists, for example, everything occurs in what they have called the "contact border" where the organism interacts with the environment, we are seen as inherently relational beings who cannot be conceived of as separate from the environment and other beings
[13:27] CB Axel: That makes us sound like computers, Faust. GIGO
[13:27] Faust (faust.saenz): lol
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:27] Faust (faust.saenz): hopefully there are no ghosts in the machine
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or bugs
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: hehehe
[13:27] herman Bergson: You are right Faust....
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:27] Faust (faust.saenz): :)
[13:28] herman Bergson: But what you forget to mention is the CPU
[13:28] CB Axel: LOL Buggy Brain Syndrome!
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:28] herman Bergson: and the CPU is what makes the difference :-)
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (attempt to debug CB but gives up as the programming language is one i dont know at moment)
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:28] CB Axel: LOL
[13:29] CB Axel: I think I have my own programming language.
[13:29] CB Axel: No one understands it.
[13:29] herman Bergson: I di :-)
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (note to slf, upgrade CB to Java next time)
[13:29] herman Bergson: do
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:29] CB Axel: hehehe
[13:29] Piovefiore: lol
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so i can hack into your deepest mind and find your lost memories
[13:30] herman Bergson: oh my BEjiita goed Freudian...
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however many of freud's ideas have been used and adjusted in psychology of today dont you think?
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:30] CB Axel: Lost memories are like a program running in the background.
[13:30] herman Bergson: He had a great influence on how we think indeed Gemma
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes, sort of
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think so
[13:31] CB Axel: I agree, Gemma. Like id = reptilian brain.
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: in a way he gave us language pictures everyone was familiar with and felt they could use
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or like when you delete something, only the marker to the data is erased, if you can restore it  you get the data /memories back
[13:31] CB Axel: Superego = frontal cortex?
[13:31] herman Bergson: And THAT is the amazing  part of this 20th century we are looking into
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:32] herman Bergson: Could say that CB
[13:32] Faust (faust.saenz): One critique I heard of Freud was that he changed his paradigms from comedy to tragedy.
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hmmm
[13:32] Faust (faust.saenz): unnecessarily
[[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:33] Faust (faust.saenz): Gilligan
[13:33] herman Bergson: There are more critics of Freud, Faust...we'll get to that in the lecture :-))
[13:33] Faust (faust.saenz): Cool
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): shall look at that later
[13:34] CB Axel: Me, too.
[13:35] CB Axel: It looks very interesting.
[13:35] herman Bergson: ok...
[13:35] herman Bergson: Guess we are done for today..:-))
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman and everyone
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:35] herman Bergson: Unless that major question is stilll burning your soul..
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:36] herman Bergson: if not....class dismissed
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill check that one out
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and cu next time
[13:36] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman and class.
[13:36] herman Bergson: and thank you all again for your participation
[13:36] bergfrau Apfelbaum: it was very interesting again! ty herman and class :-)
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:36] Piovefiore: Thank you, see you next time :)

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