Wednesday, April 18, 2018

710: Sigmund Freud and the Interpretation of Dreams...

If brought into the right situation, people can remember completely forgotten events from their earliest childhood, as Freud discovered.
The fact that those early memories related to the earliest youth showed that small children are going through a sexual phase.
During this phase, Freud argued, a young boy is attracted to his mother, making him feel a rival to his father, 
which he called the Oedipus complex, while a girl feels attracted to her father, the Elektra complex. 
According to Freud, this pattern would also determine the character and thus continue to play a role throughout life.
After the death of his father Freud began analyzing himself and his dreams. Dreams were important according to Freud. 
Because during the sleep the vigilance weakens with which the impulses of the id usually are suppressed, the id can use the dream as a cover to manifest itself. 
It was very risky to publish a book about dreams, Freud realized very well. 
The habit of explaining dreams goes back to the Old Testament, but the German title of the book, "Die Traumdeutung", was not exactly confidence-inspiring. 
By 'Traumdeutung' was meant the practice of fortune-tellers at the fair.
When you google on "Interpretation of Dreams" you'll find a lot of PDF files of Freud's book.
The one I found, is a nice edition and, by the way, in general a wonderful source of all kinds of literature:
This is Freud's book om interpretation of dream
The quintessential question is: do dreams have a meaning, not to confuse this with a functional meaning for the well-being of the central nervous system.
Freud introduced interpretation of dreams as a subject of the science of psychology. Whether dreams can have a meaning is not our real issue here.
Our observation is that in the 21th century you can collect a huge bookshelf full of books, which claim to be scientific regarding  interpretation of dreams.
However, there is serious criticism of the scientific status of Freud's work.
Karl Popper argued that psychoanalysis is a pseudoscience because its claims are not testable and cannot be refuted; that is, they are not falsifiable.
Imre Lakatos later noted: "Freudians have been nonplussed by Popper's basic challenge concerning scientific honesty. 
Indeed, they have refused to specify experimental conditions under which they would give up their basic assumptions."
Cognitive scientists, in particular, have also weighed in. Martin Seligman, a prominent academic in positive psychology wrote, 
"Thirty years ago, the cognitive revolution in psychology overthrew both Freud and the behaviorists, at least in academia. ... 
Thinking ... is not just a result of emotion or behavior. ...  Emotion is always generated by cognition, not the other way around."
Linguist Noam Chomsky has criticized psychoanalysis for lacking a scientific basis.
Steven Pinker considers Freudian theory unscientific for understanding the mind.
A list of highly respected people, but although they may be right, Freud has imprinted his ideas on many aspects of 21th century thinking.
Thank you for your attention again.....

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
Peter Watson: A Terrible Beauty (2000)
Sigmund Freud: Traumdeutung (1900)

The Discussion

[13:25] herman Bergson: So....what do you think about dreams and their meaning?
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well they can sometimes surely give me ideas for the rest of the day sometimes
[13:25] CB Axel: I frequently wake from a dream and think to myself, "What was THAT all about?"
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and sometimes they are just a mess that i forget as soon as i awake just remembering it was some weird mess
[13:26] herman Bergson: too CB :-)
[13:26] CB Axel: I do that, too, Bejiita.
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one strange thing is sometimes a thing from way before comes in that i havent even thought of for eternity
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes you can buy a lot of books today on dream interpretation.....what abot them?
[13:27] CB Axel: Sometimes I remember them in detail.
[13:27] Piovefiore: I have had many strange, intense dream experiences, I think often, though maybe not always, we are working through in dreams whatever is going on in our waking lives
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dreams are usually affected by what have happened during the day
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i have to go..the thunder gets worse
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sorry
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa dont fry the machine
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): better be safe
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont) is offline.
[13:27] CB Axel: My dreams, while entertaining, don't seem to mean anything or help me in any way.
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i sometimes use my dreams as ideas for my game projects
[13:28] herman Bergson: I agree CB :-)
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it helps me with comming up with stuff
[13:28] CB Axel: That's cool, Bejiita.
[13:28] herman Bergson: You seem to be a creative dreamer then, Bejiita :-)
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what would want to master a bit better in this case however is lucid dreaming (if you can master this at all) to set a main theme for it
[13:28] Piovefiore: I share Beijita's experience, I do get ideas from my dreams, but I have had periods of frequent nightmares as well
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then let the brain run on autopilot to give me ideas
[13:29] CB Axel: I've never tried lucid dreaming.
[13:29] Piovefiore: I share that desire Beijita, in my case mostly to be able to get out of nightmares or experiences like sleep paralysis
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:29] CB Axel: My dreams can be influenced by sounds around me, like if I fall asleep with the radio on.
[13:30] herman Bergson: Yeah there is some theory that you can control your dreams.....or so...
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think  i hava managed sometime to do it, control the continuation of it while still dreaming
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think the secret is to be in a sort of half awake state, and i sleep so deep i think its why i rarley can do it
[13:31] Piovefiore: I have become aware of dreaming while in the dream, but I still cannot control the direction the dream will take
[13:31] CB Axel: I've had that same experience, Piovefiore.
[13:31] herman Bergson: I remember it happening once lately...
[13:32] herman Bergson: I was dreaming....woke up somewhat and then wanted the dream to go on....and it did....
[13:32] herman Bergson: But maybe I dreamt that I woke up in the middle of the dream....who knows
[13:32] Piovefiore: :)
[13:33] herman Bergson: And another classic in my dreams is that I am searching for a bathroom :-)))
[13:33] Piovefiore: Like the story of Zhuangzi and the butterfly
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa yes
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): had too much beer?
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe
[13:33] CB Axel: I've had that dream. too, Herman.
[13:33] Piovefiore: Yes, I call that false awakening
[13:33] herman Bergson: which is pretty obvious for when I wake up I know what to fdo first :-)))
[13:33] CB Axel: I'm afraid I'll find one in the dream and wake up to find the bed is wet. lol
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): loool
[13:34] herman Bergson: lol YEs CB...,has been my fear
[13:34] Piovefiore: Lol
[13:34] herman Bergson: but fortunately that never has happened (yet)
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed i have been doing that as well, dreaming about what i know is going to happen next morning and thinking im  awake but im not, still dreaming
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very strange experience
[13:34] Piovefiore: Yes, it can be!
[13:34] CB Axel: The only really recurring dream I have is being stuck in mud or some other thick substance and having trouble moving forward.
[13:34] CB Axel: I haven't had that dream since I quit my job.
[13:35] CB Axel: Hmmm
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the higgs field is grabbing you
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:35] CB Axel: LOL
[13:35] Piovefiore: You're not stuck anymore ;)
[13:35] CB Axel nods
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (runs out to get a cement truck, then proceeds with pouring cement all over CB)
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MUHAHAHAH
[13:35] herman Bergson: My dreams are often about searching my way through buildings....often in search of the bathroom :-)))
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now your stuck
[13:36] Piovefiore: Evil Beijita!
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mushahahahah
[13:36] CB Axel: LOL
[13:36] CB Axel: Bad boy, Bejiita!
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im a little unpredictable sometimes
[13:36] herman Bergson: BUT.....yet the main point here still is....
[13:37] herman Bergson: do our dreams have a REAL psychological meaning in some manner?
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: they use pictures to express something we process
[13:37] CB Axel: Well, my being stuck seems to.
[13:37] Piovefiore: My guess is some do and some don't, like CB's dream
[13:37] Piovefiore: Yes :)
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: its just a way of expression - thats my guess
[13:38] herman Bergson: MY searching for bathrooms seems too to mean something :-))
[13:38] CB Axel: That could be, Ciska.
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: it does!
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: u want to get rid of something but you do not want to do it in public ;)
[13:38] CB Axel: Yes, Herman. It means you should avoid drinking liquids before bedtime!
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well im not sure at all how it works
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: (would be a classic interpretation)
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha yes, stop emptying my beer storage!
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: hehehe
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that beer i save for fridays
[13:39] Piovefiore: In humanistic therapies they would ask you to identify in turn with each of the different elements in your dream
[13:39] herman Bergson: that would mean I never would dream anymore, CB....would be a pitty
[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Piove...that is th efunny part of dream interpretation.....
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: well so you walk through nice buildings while searching the loo?
[13:40] Piovefiore: see what they each have to say, and that what is important is your own experience of it
[13:40] herman Bergson: Freud talks of two ways of dream interpretation....
[13:40] Piovefiore: that is, there is not a right or wrong interpretation, a more phenomenological view
[13:40] herman Bergson: Method one is...
[13:41] herman Bergson: you take the whole dream as a symbolic story....
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: (maybe someone uses the next door water tab extensively as soon as you sleep in - that migh trigger he same effect)
[13:41] herman Bergson: that is what Joseph  did with the dreams of the pharao....
[13:41] herman Bergson: the other method he calls the cifer-method....
[13:42] herman Bergson: you take elements in a dream as symbols for something else...
[13:42] herman Bergson: in the bookstore you can find this kind of dictionaries....
[13:42] herman Bergson: for dream of a bird.....
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: (which leads to the famous "sometimes a knife is just a  knife" quote)
[13:42] herman Bergson: so you look up...bird....etc
[13:43] herman Bergson: ahhh Ciska....
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not heard of that one
[13:43] herman Bergson: and here is indeed the problem.....
[13:43] herman Bergson: there is no methodology here.....
[13:44] herman Bergson: no way to proof these correlations between dream images and real life meanings
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone:               ♥(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ * ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)♥
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone:   «´·.¸¸.•     WELCOME BACK!     •.¸¸.·`»
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone:               ♥(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ * `'·.¸)`'·.¸)♥ 
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like one i read. you are falling = overstressed from work or simething simiar
[13:45] CB Axel: Dream interpretation is fun to play around with, but it isn't scientific. It's like astrology in that way.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or you are chased, = worried missing a deadline (time is chasing you)
[13:45] herman Bergson: How was this realting between (dream) falling and overstressed in work established?
[13:45] Piovefiore: (my apologies, crashed)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): things like that
[13:45] CB Axel: wb, Piovefiore.
[13:46] herman Bergson: You still look fine Piovefiore
[13:46] Piovefiore: Ty :)
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed cb
[13:46] CB Axel: Well, those correlations could have been coincidence.
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also i find often my horoscope seem to match with is a fun thing
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with what i can epect
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with fortune cookies
[13:46] herman Bergson: You see Bejiita.....this A = B examples  can't be proven by anything....
[13:47] CB Axel: Post hoc ergo propter hoc
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one i remember after eating with my dance crew after we had an amazing battle, when i opened the cookie it said, "you achieve everything you want"
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes....something like that CB
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and indeed i did that day
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 100% accurate
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a little fun
[13:48] herman Bergson: But you always achieve what you want, Bejiita...and what you didnt achieve you say about...ahh...I actually didn't want that
[13:48] herman Bergson: so such a cookie is always right
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the thing was there was nothing i did not want that day
[13:49] herman Bergson: What a day you had ^_^
[13:49] Piovefiore: Yes! I want a fortune cookie like that ;)
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because it was a thing i love to do
[13:50] CB Axel: The blackboard has a typo.
[13:50] herman Bergson: Main point is, that we are discussing interpretation possibility of dreams.....and that is what Freud left us.....
[13:50] CB Axel: Class is at 1 PM not 1 AM.
[13:50] herman Bergson: oh dear.....
[13:50] herman Bergson: thank  you CB
[13:51] Piovefiore: So there will be no class next Thursday?
[13:52] herman Bergson: Ahh before I forget.....that is true....
[13:52] CB Axel: Sure, Freud interpreted dreams, but like you suggested, dreams were being interpreted by fortune tellers.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think it will
[13:52] herman Bergson: Next Thursday you'll fiend my with wife and some friends on the island Schiermonnikoog :-)
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa yes
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok you are going there
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:52] Piovefiore: :)
[13:52] herman Bergson: Indeed I will Bejiita
[13:52] CB Axel: I wonder what you'll dream about while you're there. °͜°
[13:53] Piovefiore: Hehe, yes
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some more ideas to the next class
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:53] herman Bergson: That was what just crossed my mind too CB :-)
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aboutdream interpretation or something else
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause this was interesting, as said i often try use things from dreams in my game engines and simiar, basically trying to save them there
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in a computer program
[13:54] herman Bergson: At least I can come to one conclusion.....
[13:54] herman Bergson: unless you suffer form some psychosis just enjoy your dreams...they mean nothing :-)
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:55] Piovefiore: :)
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: thank you  hermnan
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu around all
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:55] herman Bergson: Nocturnal amusement they are :-)
[13:55] CB Axel: Exactly.
[13:55] Piovefiore: Thank you, see you in a week :;)
[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you for your participation again...:-)
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (takes a jackjammer out and knocks all cement off cb
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): )
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: anyone in formore rain?
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): BRRRRRRRRRR
[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there u go
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:55] CB Axel: Thank you, Bejiita.
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu around
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hapy dreaming
[13:56] Piovefiore: You too!
[13:56] herman Bergson: Sweet dreams you all :-)
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: good night

[13:56] Piovefiore rushes out of the rain

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