As I said last Tuesday, we must turn to history and study what man has thought about how a society should deal with money and private property,
or should I say how a society "OUGHT" to deal with money and private property, because that is what it is all about: what is right and wrong in economic and financial behavior.
This is also the reason why economic thought has been a part of moral philosophy and theology. This is about the tension between the individual and the group, the community.
The intellectual roots of socialist ideas reach back almost as far as recorded thought. A simple form of socialist ideas certainly plays an important part in the ideas of the ancient Greek philosopher Plato (c. 428–423 BC),
who depicts in his book "Republica" an austere society in which men and women of the “guardian” class share with each other not only their few material goods but also their spouses and children.
Early Christian communities also practiced the sharing of goods and labour, a simple form of socialism subsequently followed in certain forms of monasticism.
Christianity and Platonism were combined in More’s "Utopia" (1516), which apparently recommends communal ownership as a way of controlling the sins of pride, envy, and greed.
Land and houses are common property on More’s imaginary island of Utopia, where everyone works for at least two years on the communal farms
and people change houses every 10 years, so that no one develops pride of possession. Money has been abolished, and people are free to take what they need from common storehouses.
I can continue with enumerating all kinds of socialist ideas through the ages, but Thomas More (1478 – 6 July 1535) had put his finger already on our weak spot: the sins of pride, envy, and greed.
The next step, then, is the question: how do we become proud, jealous, and greedy beings? Is human nature fixed or formed?
And what consequences do these human properties have for the social organization of a society? Is capitalism born out of, as More calls them, our sins?
Are socialist ideas telling us how society OUGHT to be organized and the blueprint of how to overcome our sins? Is it all about the tension between what IS and what OUGHT to be, and how to justify the one or the other?
These are the very questions that would shape the coming debates about capitalism, and they are the questions we will explore tonight.
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
of Economic Thought (2012)
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
27 - Artificial Intelligence 9 Feb 2024 / 1108
28 - Why Am I Here 6 Sept 2024 / 1139
The Discussion
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:20] Max Chatnoir: Thank you, Hermal.
[13:20] Max Chatnoir: Herman
[13:20] herman Bergson: Another question is of course....Why OUGHT it to be like X.
[13:21] Max Chatnoir: How do we distinguish between things we should share with other people and things we should not.
[13:21] herman Bergson: It ought to be means "het behoort zo te zijn"
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's what de factory ceo said , I keep them poor and the curch said : I keep them stupid
[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes Max, good point. It relates directly to the concept of private property.
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aah
[13:22] Max Chatnoir: toothbrush? underwear? work clothes? glasses?
[13:22] herman Bergson: And to that question we knowthe answer of the capitalist
[13:23] herman Bergson: Nice examples, Max :-))
[13:23] Max Chatnoir: car? washing machine? lawnmower?
[13:23] herman Bergson: A car is already questionable....
[13:24] herman Bergson: does everyone need a private car? Or does he only need a car when he has to go somewhere/?
[13:24] Max Chatnoir: Seems like a car could be shared, but driving an unfamiliar vehicle can be dangerous....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sure cars are quite similar but there are differences indeedd
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how they feel to drive
[13:25] herman Bergson: You canget used to that
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: I guess you could have some kind of common vehicle that anybody could use.
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes, I have no issues, the controls are the same, just as with computers
[13:26] herman Bergson: The toothbrush is a more difficult object :-)
[13:26] herman Bergson: and the underware.....well....:-))
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: Computers! Good one!
[13:26] herman Bergson: You can have multiple login accounts on one computer
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i find driving different forklifts more challenging because they might behave quite different regarding breaking ect ad controls in differennt locations ect
[13:26] Stranger Nightfire: I have seen the question asked why we don't have things like tool landing libraries just like we have book landing libraries
[13:27] herman Bergson: We have in the Netherlands....
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: Tool libraries?
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: Cool!
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok, thats a new one for me
[13:28] herman Bergson: Big company...you can rent there almost any tool that existst from screwdriver to catter pilar
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): professional tools
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: I use my screwdrivers a lot!
[13:28] herman Bergson: absolutely
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa THOSE kind of libraries like tool rental companies like for ex Cramo?
[13:29] Stranger Nightfire: Well I was saying they could be made free like the book libraries
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's not expencive to hire the tools
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:30] Max Chatnoir: In the Netherlands tool libraries, do you just check them out for a period of time? Or rent them?
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you rent them for half a day or longer
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well, it doesn't have to be so black and white....you can allow people to own certain objects as pivate property...likekthat toothbrush and the undeerware
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: Yes, that one seems reasonable.
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hygienic reasons
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Bedjiita
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:31] herman Bergson: Besides what you wear is not my size Max :-)
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: That is definitely a issue!
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that too
[13:32] Stranger Nightfire: I mentioned last time I think and it surprises me how popular the John Lennon song Imagine us
[13:32] Stranger Nightfire: Considering how radical it is
[13:32] herman Bergson: yes indeed you did last time
[13:32] Stranger Nightfire: he explicitly says imagine no possessions
[13:32] herman Bergson: no possesions
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: I guess that one doesn't mention underwear...
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or a toothbrush
[13:34] Stranger Nightfire: Of course there's quite a long way from the possessiveness of one who wants his own toothbrush and that of who owns a number of different mansions and allows no one in need to sleep in them
[13:34] Max Chatnoir: What about a guitar or a violin or other musical instruments.
[13:34] herman Bergson: I think it isn't that difficult to create some kind of set of personal belongings....
[13:34] herman Bergson: The point here is...you should not own 10 toothbrushes
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): for every tooth 1:)
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems unneccesary for sure
[13:35] herman Bergson: then you need at least 20
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): some have only 10
[13:35] herman Bergson: ㋡ (I new you would say that )
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yoou know me:)
[13:36] Max Chatnoir: Maybe one for the incisors, one for the canines, one for the bicuspids, etc.
[13:36] herman Bergson whispers: and one for the dog :-)
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ツ
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: How about pets?
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: community cat?
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: community horse?
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: community goat?
[13:37] herman Bergson: When we get to Marx we arrive at a prescriptive interpretation of economics and societal organisation...
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: Does he consider some of those questions?
[13:38] herman Bergson: Some animals bond only with one person...
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): trubbel is..when people rent a bike or so..they are often distroit , because they say it's not mine, so I can easily destroy it
[13:39] herman Bergson: Not in detail like we do now, but yes he is clear about how it OUGHT to be
[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: mostly to the person who feeds him
[13:39] herman Bergson: for instance
[13:39] Max Chatnoir: There are borrowable bicycles in some places.
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they don't care about others property
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, in my town they stoppet the experience
[13:40] Max Chatnoir: But community property is also yours some of the time.
[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje, that is one of our problems
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we see this with the rentable e scoothers that are just throw all across the roads
[13:40] Stranger Nightfire: I have heard of people having scorn heaped upon them for having dared to concepts like fairness or morality in an American university economics or business class
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): posing a crash hazard
[13:41] herman Bergson: Indeed Max...so is the attitude towards objects fixed or formed....?
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: Formed, surely. They aren't natural objects.
[13:42] herman Bergson: That is rather shocking, Stranger
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: We could learn to respect community property.
[13:42] herman Bergson: I think so too
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Americal buisnness I say is all about greed and grab all u can, no place for morale
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sa reality
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sad
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: Can we unlearn that?
[13:43] herman Bergson: It will be a slow process, but yes, I think so.
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we see this now with the AI companies grabbig all computer hardware and not giving a shit about ordinary customers because AI is more profitable
[13:43] herman Bergson: But it is a complex matter and will take generations
[13:45] herman Bergson: But imagine a situation of scarceness....only one car for 50 people, because the world ran out of recources to build more...
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: And you have to get to the car....
[13:46] herman Bergson: The car has to owned by the community then..and only used by someone who needs it at a given time and moment
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): car pools
[13:46] herman Bergson: something like that
[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: back to the horse
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): then they have to build shops, hospitals ed, closer to the people who ive there
[13:46] Max Chatnoir: Yes, you'd need community restructuring.
[13:47] herman Bergson: yes...a different world....
[13:47] Stranger Nightfire: One can certainly imagine a future with no need for private cars as we in some Chinese cities there are autonomous drones It can carry two passengers in operation
[13:47] Stranger Nightfire: and as of right now I think the rides are pretty expensive because it's a new technology being implemented
[13:47] Stranger Nightfire: but one can imagine at some point at even becoming a free public utility
[13:48] Stranger Nightfire: anyone can quickly summon a drone and go where they need
[13:48] herman Bergson: We have Green Cars in the Netherlands...
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: What's a green car?
[13:48] herman Bergson: the cars are parked anywhere and you can hire it for ashort period
[13:48] herman Bergson: and then put it back at some parking place
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aah
[13:49] herman Bergson: Gren Cars is the Company name
[13:49] Max Chatnoir: That might work. Do you have something like a Car card?
[13:49] Max Chatnoir: For hiring fees?
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i hope man doesn't smoke in the car and don't have the dog in...
[13:50] herman Bergson: Yes..works with an app...you unlock the car and there you go
[13:50] Max Chatnoir: You could have special pet cars.
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it can be a bit smelly
[13:50] herman Bergson: There are rules...
[13:50] Max Chatnoir: Or carts that could be attached?
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[13:52] bergfrau Apfelbaum: iam in favor of drones as public transport and plenty of forest and greenery on the ground :-)
[13:52] Max Chatnoir: have any of you ridden in a drone?
[13:52] Max Chatnoir: Or know anybody who has?
[13:52] herman Bergson: At least we now have clear some issues....what about personal private property..to what extend...and why OUGHT a society to be in a certain way...
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): flying drone foir people? nope, seen some prototype o youtube
[13:53] Stranger Nightfire: So far as I know only China has implemented commer Man carrying drones
[13:53] herman Bergson: They are not available in NL
[13:53] Stranger Nightfire: Commercial that is
[13:53] Max Chatnoir: They must be biggish. Like a portable helicopter sort of?
[13:54] herman Bergson: I have seen some yes, Max
[13:54] Max Chatnoir: Or transport cables like a ski lift.
[13:54] herman Bergson: But I wouldn't dare to use such an autonomous flying thing
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as long they are not prone to crashing i can se myself flying everywhere more or less nno prob
[13:55] herman Bergson: not even cars...
[13:55] Stranger Nightfire: I believe as I recall they've had 48,000 chess flights without any incidents
[13:55] Stranger Nightfire: test flights
[13:55] Max Chatnoir: who?
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when ur up in the air u want it to be stable for sure, like how it mostly is when riding an airliner
[13:55] Stranger Nightfire: The Chinese company that runs them
[13:56] Max Chatnoir: ARe you in a little cubicle or just sitting on a seat?
[13:56] Stranger Nightfire: There is a little cabin
[13:56] Max Chatnoir: I'm thinking about weather.
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like i have no prob stepping into like a 737 or airbus and take off in the sky but also i then trust both the machine an the pilots
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to give me a nice safe ride up and down
[13:57] Max Chatnoir: Drone flight could be expensive.
[13:57] herman Bergson: Well, thenit is time to take off and fligh away into the weekend :-)
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aha
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ad to the card table !
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why not simply use a bike?
[13:58] Max Chatnoir: Interesting thought experiment.
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:58] herman Bergson: That flight is for free, Max ㋡
[13:58] herman Bergson: So, thank you all again...Let's continue next Tuesday
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): depends how far u need to go i guess
[13:58] Max Chatnoir: I'd go for a bike or maybe a big tricycle.
[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[13:58] Max Chatnoir: See you all soon.
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but yes works great for sho
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